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| Hey everyone..me and some buddies were talking about this the other day..on how it seems the older tractors are just more reliable then the newer ones..one buddy has a newer mx 240 which he has had nothing but trouble with..and another buddy has a Deere 8320 which has had a fair amount of trouble too,with just about 900 hours on it..I don't understand why the newer machines can't be as reliable..with time,your supposed to improve things..but it seems that all of the manufacturer's are going backwards these days..and it's hard to say..cuz i'm a die-hard Deere man..I personally think it's because they don't take enough time to test the machines out before they release them anymore..it seems there's a new series every two years..I can't afford anything new..so I don't have much experience with them (my newest tractor is a Deere 4955)..but I do know that I never had any real trouble with my new 4440..4450..4455..etc..in my opinion,they should start making these again..rock-solid machines..and alot cheaper to run and own..well..i've said enough..lol..any comments about this would be appreciated,take care everyone. |
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Somewhereville, Earth | i not even read the whole post yet.........lol and i will post a reply
i like older machines, remeber thou steel fatigues, rubber persishes, and idiot operators will abuse them thinking if it dies, they get another
re; testing before release, remeber they are supplying a product to a customer who sells his product to a customer who sets the price, you want quality, you go to you grain buyer and tell him his price is too cheap
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Macon, IL | Seems the new tractors have so many bells and whistles. They are really nice and those that can afford them I am sure like them. The problem is it is just that many more things to go wrong.
Probably not an issue in most cases if you are going to keep something 5 or 6 years and can afford to trade off.
Looking at the new tractors today-with all the electronics and expensive circuit boards-it seems to me it would be pretty scary to own one of those in about 20 years. |
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NE SD | Give it a rest already. |
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Mountain West | Maybe the Chinese will copy the 50 series Deere and sell them for $20,000 apiece. |
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Fruita CO | Marketing is driving engineering-one color gets a new gizmo, everybody will have it next year...bring out the new gizmo before somebody else does, whether it's ready or not...plastic, wires & circuit boards are not as durable as steel, cast iron, & hydraulics...it's a fact of life. Like the other post above said, these tractors will be a nightmare in 20 years. But don't be expecting a company to go backwards & bring back the 4020, for example. It ain't happening, for a lot of reasons. |
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| The model T was a hell of a truck at one time too, I think it had a bell and a whistle. Glad we don't still use it. |
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Alberta, Canada | Electronics are in everything else on the road, on the water, in the air, on the battle field and so on. Can't see why they wouldn't stand up in an AG machine if built properly. |
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Woodham, Ontario | Our 1997 New Holland 8160 was flawless until we traded it at 7650 hours and the 2001 JD 7210 has over 5600 hours and never has problems either.
If you still run tractors that old then maybe you don't use them enough.
If anything breaks, it's usually mechanical, the electronics always work.
Edited by Gerard 10/5/2006 10:49
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| I'm not "crying"..just trying to see what people thought on this subject..and yes,I do use my tractors..most of them hard..my one 4450 has 16,600 hours on it right now..we bought it new and it's always worked hard..still runs darn good..as far as the electronics always working and the mechanical stuff going bad..that's simply not true..i'm glad to see you have had good luck with your newer tractors but alot of guys havn't..and their very low-houred machines..electronic tachs are good..but I have no time for electronic transmissions..etc..have a good day. |
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| lol..Just seeing what everybody thought on this Chad...you know how good the older tractors are..from what i've read..you had a 4440 and still have a 4450..both of which have/had a boatload of troublefree hours. |
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SW North Dakota | "if you still run tractors that old then you don't use them enough."
If that ain't away to piss someone off. Sounds like you need to be called money bags. Many people here still run the older equipment, due to cost of upgrading will bankrupt alot of them. Dad has a 3010 (13,000-16,000hrs), 3020 (7000hrs), 4030(6800hrs), and our newest a 4455 (4800hrs). Sure they could be traded for something newer but the 3 are paid off, and dad looking for another to pull the swingtongue since the 4030 is getting quite the work out. Anyhow, I'd like newer but the price is still to darned high for a small farmer. |
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| Well in my opinion, they are all good. I've got old equipment, and new as well. My oldest tractor is a JD 4030 for the money, its a good solid tractor. It has more than paid it's way. The newest field tractor for me is a CIH 7110 MFD. I really like it too. You need to farm within your means. If you can go for all new then do it. But I can't, somethings we buy new hay balers, swathers, etc. The things we have a time line to use. We can't have our hay equipment go down.
I'm not afraid of electronics on equipment, they get better with time, and help you make that 100,000 dollar tractor idiot proof for some drivers. When you have a time line to get a crop in, and can make a new tractor pay for itself, go for it. |
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Woodham, Ontario | I know what I said was a bit harsh, but when going against popular opinion that it often seems that way.
We have 3 tractors, all of them do on average 1000 hours per year. Can we aford to get a 4th? Yes. Does it make sense? No It will be parked most of the year. If you have a fleet of 30 year old tractors with 5000 hours on them, then maybe you bought too many tractors 30 years ago! Sure they are paid for now, but maybe the money could have been spent a lot better back then.
We use our tractors quite a bit for northern standards, running older tractors means we soon have really high houred tractors. Used tractor prices around here for less than 4000 hour tractors are way too high compared to new because most people think new is too expensive. We do the math every time and buying new and running it to 10,000 hours in 6-10 years is the cheapest for us. |
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| Massey has a 4xx series of tractors that are in the 35 to 90 hp and they are a very simple straight forward design and built in todays shop and with the simpicity of the late '60's and early '70's. I have a neighbor that has one and I think there will be one on this farm fairly soon.
The bells and whistles of a new machine are nice but will we be able to fix them and get parts for them in 20 years? Just look at a compeuter that is more than 5 years old and the store tells you to get a new one instead of fix it because is is so outdated. I fear that these $100,000 tractor and $225,000 combines won't be as plentiful in 20 years as the 20- 30 year old machines are now. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the manufactures should look at some small class combines, nobody makes a class 4 and very few class 5. There are a lot of small farmers that like the independence of their own machine even if their bottom line isn't as low as it could be if it were custom harvested. I hope these don't disapear in the next 20 years.
Nathan |
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Huntington, IN | One of the biggest things is that no one ever sits around the coffee shop telling about how well their tractor runs. They just want to complain about what has broken. Especially the guys that spend all that money on a new tractor because by golly, "It's new and shouldn't break". I have a buddy that ran old worn out tractors all his life then went out and bought a new JD 5525 to bale with. The first day it had a noise in the transmission and he caught the by golly syndrome and marched it straight back to the dealer with a corn cob up his hind end. Just because "It's new and shouldn't break"!!!! |
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NE SD | Yeah we do, but we also have newer tractors as well and I know what everyone on our farm would prefer to run. Here's a hint for you- It's not the older ones. |
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Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND | When I read that you put 1000 hrs per year on a tractor,judged by the standards of "my" area,your resources are stretched foolishly thin. Around "here", we usually only have a bit more than 90 frost free days per season, if we put 1000 hrs on a major planting,spraying,harvest tractor, we would have little chance of staying within the ideal window of planting/spraying/harvest,even in a rare ideal year,and have NO chance in a normal year. The norm here is to buy the largest equipment that is practical to get the job done,even in a short season of less than ideal weather. You have to realize that this large equipment gets the job done in only about 200-250 hrs per year for a large tillage/planting tractor which means that they normally are still in great condition at 20 years with little or no repairs at only 5000 hrs total time. The same goes for combines which are usually the largest available and see 300-500 hrs per year in lower yielding,non abrasive crops,so it is normal to run a combine 15-20 years with only minor yearly maintenance and repairs.
For us,this is by far the most cost effective way to get the job done in our short seasons.
Because we keep equipment 20+ years,the amount of plastic ,which is what most switches,sensors,circuit boards,wire insulation is made from,is of great concern. After 15-20 years of heat and sunlight,the stuff has off gassed and shrunk to the point that it is very prone to cracking,shrinking or just falling apart.
Edited by Jon Hagen 10/6/2006 00:37
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Janesville Ca, 96114 | Well, my two cents is this; You can't farm with junk of any color. Every farm is different and every crop has a different window and value. If I could stay with older machinery and make money, I would. But being in the custom hay business and having a 145 day growing season I have to have the best iron I can afford. Farming the neighbors out of the kitchen window never made anybody and money. What I like are the guys like you that sit back and bad mouth progressive farmers who make money and manage thier iron like their crops. My opinion is that alot of farms large and small forget that the iron is just like the livestock or crops in the field it needs management not just maintainence. |
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Woodham, Ontario | I agree 100% |
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Woodham, Ontario | We have dairy so we use the tractors throughout the entire year. I can plant the corn in 4 days and drill the alfalfa in a day and a half or so, it's not not spread that thin.
You can always look at it from 2 sides. What is more cost effective? larger equipment and get it in a few days earlier or fewer pieces of machinery and save on purchasing and depreciation and interest. Even tractors that are "paid for" are liquid enough to be sold quickly and that money could make you interest if invested somewhere else. |
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Brazilton KS | What is more cost effective? larger equipment and get it in a few days earlier or fewer pieces of machinery and save on purchasing and depreciation and interest. That's a very easy question if you look at the economics of corn production in this area and most others also from what I have read. There are basically three factors which are under your control which have a major effect on corn yield. Planting date, planting date, and planting date. Another thing that matters is how early you get it planted. The differance in cost is negligible between the big planter, big field cultivator, big fertilizer rig and the big tractors to pull them compared with equipment and tractors half the size, especially when buying used. Same holds true only moreso for combines....the upkeep cost will likely favor the larger machine because it will only require complete rebuilds every few years instead of every year.
Edited by plowboy 10/5/2006 18:55
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Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND | Well see that's my problem with your post,your knocking guys for doing things different that work on their operation,but not on yours. The equipment needs of a multi thousand acre North Dakota dry land grain farm are a whole lot different than a Dairy in Ontario. And what exactly is the meaning of machinery management VS maintenance. To me,they are one and the same. To me an older machine that is maintained in like new condition is just as reliable as new iron and will do the job for far lower cost. To me that is good machinery management.
When I find new equipment that has new technology that is valuable to me that can not be cost effectively retrofitted to an older machine,I will buy the new machine in a heartbeat.
I do not buy new iron just to smell the fresh paint. Nothing wrong with the BTO's that just gotta have new paint all the time,their the ones that generate the good used stuff that a smart smaller operation will buy at 5-10 years old for 1/3 the money and still be able to get 3/4 of the original value out of the machine. |
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| Very interesting conversation. There are pro and cons for both like everyone has mentioned. The best advice is to what makes you money! Like Jeff Outwest you have to manage your equipment. Big farms that put lots of hours on need the reliability and peace of mind that their machinery will be working virtually everyday. That's how that justify the costs and expenses - covering more acreage. But there are smaller farmers that can justify new also - most are specialized or budget their equipment expenses - we are seeing more and more part-time farmers with off farm jobs - these farmers demand the reliability of newer machines. New machines not matter what color can breakdown. IF humans put them together there is always a chance for failure but normally a new tractor is less prone to failure that can cause work stoppage. But on the other hand tractors are very well built - we still have WD45's and Oliver 77's being used everyday in our area - yes they aren't the primary tractor but how many 50 year old auto and other items still running and in general easy access to most common parts. There still has to be a demand for used machinery be it a spare tractor for the big operator or the primary tractor for others - without a demand for used product the values would depreciate fast. Look at combines how fast does the resell drop on 5 to 10 to 20 year old machines. A used tractor can be used as a primary tractor for some but you also run the risk as the older it get the higher the maintenance costs can become and the higher the chances are for downtime. You have to weight out the costs downtime and maintenance costs versus new cost. There's not a simple answer but the best guideline is can you be profitable with what you have. |
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NE SD | Amen to that Jeff. Our goal has been to set ourselves up so that we can plant our corn in one week, and plant our beans in just over a week. Similar for harvest, except we aim for about 10-15 days for each crop. As far as planting goes, those are aimed at rain windows and as Plowboy suggested- planting date. Usually in May we can count on a rain every 8-10 days....sometimes more often. Some neighbors are trying to run too many acres with their one planter and it shows in the work they do and when they finish. There are a few guys stretching harvest. One guy in particular puts 6-700 hours on his one combine each year. He covers a considerable amount of acres with it though.....and gets a new combine every two years. We put 400hrs a year on our combine as pick all the corn. We're looking at it right now as 13-1500 seperator hours is going to be an optimal trading point. We used to run 3 older combines in beans. We get more done faster with two newer combines and one less operator. |
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Pasco WA. | Machinery cost vs timeliness has to be balanced. What is gained by stretching your equipment usage and producing poorer crops. I raise hay and I try to be able to cut an entire cutting in a week. I have to be able to rake and bale at that speed even when conditions are not ideal. I'll take two used machines at 50% of new price over one new one any day. Assuming that the new machine is comparable.
The lowest equipment cost is not always the most profitable. |
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| “Sure they are paid for now, but maybe the money could have been spent a lot better back then.”
That is bad financial advice. Decisions can only be made during the present. The amount of money spent five years ago should have no influence on the current decision. Of course, the money that was spent could mean that the machine should be reliable for an X number of years, which is the correct logic of thinking.
“If you have a fleet of 30 year old tractors with 5000 hours on them, then maybe you bought too many tractors 30 years ago!”
Again, I highly disagree. I think if someone has a fleet of 30-year-old tractors it means that they decided they would receive more benefit/return to keep the tractors rather than trade or sell them.
I can think of many reasons why to keep old tractors around. Yes, they do incur an opportunity cost, but the benefit they provide might outweigh that. The biggest benefit for us is the amount of time saved by not having to shuffle equipment around all the time. Plus, if one piece of equipment goes down, most likely there is a replacement immediately available. Well-maintained equipment can be just as or more reliable than new equipment.
I think Jdman5055 has a good point. Likewise, I am starting to get the impression that newer tractors are not less reliable, but may be starting to become more disposable with the introduction of the electronics. It seems this has been the trend with the auto industry, and I would not be surprised to see it in the agriculture industry. It sure seems that there are not very many 1989 vehicles for sale anymore.
Mav
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Fruita CO | Here's another take on used vs. new. The story of our little valley...in 1972, I went to work for the JD dealer. At that time, there were dealers for JD, IH, AC, MF, Ford, Case, Hesston, Farmhand, New Holland & Oliver here in the valley. The big crops were sugar beets & beer barley, (Coors). there were probably 10-12 dairies, 5 or 6 feedlots, hogs all over the place, lots of sheep & cow outfits that wintered here. Orchards in one end of the valley. Beet guys never put more than 2-3000 hr. on a tractor....
Fast forward to 2006-no beets, Holly pulled out in the 70's, no beer barley, Coors left the West slope about the same time. Those were the big blows that started things downhill. The JD dealer is a branch store from Delta, 90% of their business is lawn & garden. Same Ford dealer is here, now New Holland, Hesston, Kubota, & a few other short lines, the hardware/western clothes/horse tack store is the main reason they are still open. All other colors' dealers are 2-300 mi. away. There is one operating dairy, 2 feedlots, the big one is a sideline to a trucking business. Horses out the *ss, 90% of which never get ridden, they're just big dogs...rest of the farming is hay & corn, the corn is mostly trucked out of the valley. Lots of farmers run trucks on the side. Enough hogs to furnish 4H pigs, a few sheep & cows, mostly hobby type operations. The sale barn shut down a few years back. Couple guys doing alfalfa seed, there was a few onions for several years, they slowly fizzled out. The only thing that has been fairly stable is the fruit in the east end. The point of all this? I can just about count on one hand the new tractors JD has sold here in the last 10 years, & I don't remember the last new NH I saw, excluding weekender stuff. One egg farm that mostly hauls its feed in on the railroad. The only guy buying new big tractors on a regular basis is a dude who sold his oil field business for $5 mil & just wants to farm 'til it's all gone...but has already started back up building compressors for the oil patch...
Where I fit into all this is mostly working on the same 20-30-40-50 series I predelivered back in the 70's & 80's, plus the used stuff jockeyed into the valley from eastern CO & Nebraska. I expect to be able to do this until I retire, when most of the valley will be subdivisions, if the energy business doesn't bust...we're losing prob. about 1000 ac./yr. to houses. When I retire, I'll prob. restore the tractors I worked on all those years...;o)
The point of all this ranting & rambling is that used equipment is a fact of life here, not a choice...
Ron in (formerly agricultural) CO... |
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Alberta, Canada | "To me an older machine that is maintained in like new condition is just as reliable as new iron and will do the job for far lower cost."
Jon I'd go one step farther and say that in "certain cases" the older machine can be more reliable in that you know it inside and out. You have been there done that so you know what areas to check over in the off season. Not to mention if you have an older machine you probably stock many parts in your shop for it. One month old or a 20 year old combine they all can break down.
I know a couple pieces of machinery my father bought in the 70's he had more trouble and down time in the first year then he did the next 10 after!
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Alberta, Canada | Mav
I think maybe the reason we don't see as many older vehicles on the road (at least here) is that the cost to repair them is so high- labor. Not to mention the low or 0% interest rates, leasing etc.
Like I said in another post I can't see why electronics can't stand up providing they are built properly. We all know the big 3 auto makers fell short on this in the 80's and ealry 90's.
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Alberta, Canada | Nathan I find this whole thread interesting as I'm deciding on what do myself. Buy something brand new or 5 years old or even older. Trying to find a older "low hr" 100hp MFD tractor that is not used up is not easy. This tractor is going to have to be a keeper though and last me for years. The tractor that gets the most hrs. on it now on the farm is our old CASE 970. Bought new in 1974. Now I'd hope a new tractor built today would last as long or longer then it has.
I can't see a main line company not suppling parts for their tractor in 20 years.
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| Chad et all, whats more cost effective to you?
Running a 12 row corn planter with a 180hp tractor 12 hours / day?
OR
Running a 6 row corn planter with a 90hp tractor 24 hours / day?
A simple question.......with complex answers |
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Brazilton KS | If your "plan" is to run a 6 row machine 24 hours per day to get the job done, what is your contingency plan when things start to go awry? We start out planning to run 12 hours but shoot for about 16 in practice due to the advantage of getting done ahead of schedule. If start of planting is delayed, the limiting machine can be double shifted and pick up another 8 hours of productivity. I'm sure this will just get the other crowd all in a tizzy, but oh well....the next option is to go to the shed and pull out the retired, supposedly inferior planter and add another 12 to 24 hours to the day. By the time it gets to this point, you've already had to face the shortage of operators, and that may have become the limiting factor. The point is that a relatively low value planter which is already depreciated to the point that it's not really loosing much value anymore is not a bad insurance policy to have against conditions which close your planting window unexpectedly, or against an accident or some other event which takes out your primary operation. |
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Flandreau, SD | I will bet there will be no computer problems on this model!
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NE SD | Pretty simple really. When you no-till in our northern soils........you hadn't better be running past midnight or so or you start to do an inferior job planting- hairpinning stalks, etc. Best bet is to start out running 14 hours a day or so. Moreso, depends on what acres you have. If we were in a position similar to the one you described, the bigger planter would still have to be the way to go because of labor. There's usually enough other stuff going on that everybody is busy. I don't know about you, but most guys need at least 5-6 hours of sleep every day- if nothing else just for safty reasons. I know I'm not going to run it for a week without stopping. Mark pretty well put it into terms....when things start to get hairy you need to be able to cover serious ground. |
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| I agree. Cost of fixing vs. buying is the determinant on how disposable something is. It just depends on what produces the greatest amount of benefit for the cost. My problem is the sentimental value attached to the older equipment. But of course, the newer equipment does provide the benefit of “keeping up with the Joneses.”
I agree about the electronics. If designed properly they should be highly reliable. Conversely, I do not know if manufacturers are designing electronics in the 6-Sigma failure range given from my readings in other posts.
For my situation, I am more readily capable to fix something mechanical rather that electrical. Hence, I can discount the repair bill by devoting my own time and labor. Since I lack the tools and resources to diagnose electrical/computer problems, I am not as confident in my ability to work on the newer equipment. And, I highly doubt I will invest in the equipment and/or software to do it. I cannot count the times I read the post, “What does Code XX mean? Oh well, I will just have to wait two days and call the dealer next Monday.”
I think the trend with newer equipment is that it will necessitate a dealership to fix problems in order to help generate revenue. Of course, that journey will require venturing past the salesman’s office with an ostentatious 0% interest until ‘XX on all new purchases sticker on the door.
Mav
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Effingham, IL | I agree JDman, but as good as the JD 40 through 60 series tractor reputation for reliability has become, once the updates on the 8000 series have all been done and the operators learn how to fix some of these problems themselves, these tractors may prove to be just as good 20 years from now! I am like you right now I prefer mechanical vs electric because that's what I've always been accustumed to. Yes, I'm also the guy with an extra tractor in the shed just incase. But everyone's situation is different! CW |
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| lol..What's wrong with the comfort on the 40-50 series? I have been in and run our neighbor's 8300 and 7920..and they really aren't anymore comfortable..especially the 8300..and the Activeseat on the 79 is nice..but it already had to be fixed at 600 hours at the cost of 1500 dollars..I think the older tractors are very comfortable,and I like the dash in front..not on the right of you..the only downside (if you can call it that) to the old Sound-gard is being smaller..have a nice day. |
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| Maybe so..who knows..nothing wrong with the 8000 series in my book..hell,i'm die-hard Deere through and through..I love all of them..new and old..it was just from my experiences that the newer ones weren't quite as reliable..have a nice day. |
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Ripley, Ontario Canada | The original post was to compair older vrs newer equipment and the electronic failures that can be expected. I tend to think these electronic failures are going to occur with age not hours. If you put 1000 hours per year on new iron, you will likely have it nearly worn out in 10 years, before the real problems start. If you are expecting the sensors, wires, umpteen wiring harnes connectors, etc to keep working after sitting around, covered in mud, dust, water and other byproducts of farming without wearing, chafeing, and corroding good luck. The bigger problem is that these wires and such are often in hard to get at, even harder to see places that hold dirt and water. Tracking down these wires which may go 10 feet in a different direction before coming back to where you think they go, with their colours obscured by paint, tape or fading will not be cheap. There is something to be said for being able to grab the end of the lever under the cab and follow the connecting rod to what it does. It is either connected or not, and either does what it is suppost to or not, no guessing. |
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NE SD | LOL.........when you get out of high school, spend several 14 hour days in a 50 series tractor and then climb in an 8000 series or newer tractor tell me which one is more comfortable. |
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| lol..I'm 30..so i've been out of high school for quite some time..and I do spend 14 hour days in 50 series tractors and there is absolutely nothing wrong with comfort. |
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Nathan
As manufacturers, machines and price tags get bigger it forces us, as farmers to cover more acres with less machinery/labor. Margins will be so narrow in the next decade there won't be a need for smaller/older machinery as the "small" farmer will be extinct. The ones who will last awhile will be small "old" money farms burning up equity. I see a lot of very hard working farmers who forgot or never knew that farming is actually a business. It's sad to see because I like 99% of my neighbors but it's fairly easy to see who will be gone in 10 or 15 years. |
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new versus old tractors?
