Viewing a thread - possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?	View previous thread :: View next thread
Forums List -> Machinery Talk	Message format

poorboy

Posted 3/18/2009 13:24 (#648447)
Subject: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Southern Alberta

I have coolant showing up in the oil on my 1998 truck with a 3406E engine. Trying to figure the possible causes and what my options will be. I am losing about 1 quart of coolant per day, and more so when it was cold (-10 to -15).

The air compressor has coolant and oil so it could be a cause?
The heads could have a gasket leak between the ports or a crack?
The piston liners could have slipped and leaking past the o-ring or a hole in the liner?

Anyone have much experience as to any spots that are more likely than others?

Can a person with average mechanical skill rebuild a Cat 3406E in the slow season if a professional is hired to do a couple of the really important things? Cost for a complete inframe is way too expensive for the age and amount of useage that this truck gets.

Next time I buy a truck it will either be brand new or very old and Cheap, so that you don't mind spending money on it. A middle of the road price truck with higher mileage seems to be a purchasing mistake in my opinion.

bullhauler

Posted 3/18/2009 14:12 (#648484 - in reply to #648447)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Denhoff,ND right in the center of the State

Could be pitted liner, have you or previous owner kept up the coolant conditioner?Do you get presure in the radiator?Terry

Rich

Posted 3/18/2009 14:17 (#648491 - in reply to #648447)
Subject: RE: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Kansas

You are exactly where I was bout 8 years ago or so when I purchased my pete with a 3406.

Had it a month and went to do an overhead and saw Milk all over the top end after removing the valve covers.

Yea, you could probably try and rebuild it yourself with marginal skills but if your asking, I doubt you have enough skill and I mean that with no offense. If you did try and didn't do something correctly it could cost you more again.

Near as I see it your sitting the same place I was back then and you have about 1 of 3 options.

1: Run fast and trade for something else and expect to take it in the hiney with truck prices the way they are now.
2: Hire someone to either fix or overhaul it. The truck now owns you for life.
3: Hire someone to run a load and ask them how much more it take for them to wreck and total it for you.

I would highly advise against option 3.

option 1 won't make you alot of friends but it happens every day.

Good Luck. Hard decisions when no large amount of cash to play with. That is why it should be know far and wide, trucks are the biggest money pit on a farm.....period.

poorboy

Posted 3/18/2009 14:32 (#648505 - in reply to #648491)
Subject: RE: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Southern Alberta

Had not thought about option 3, but it makes me chuckle.

Option 1, to resell it to the next sucker, would not help my "sleeping at night", so I can't do it either.

For those who have spent the big money on repairs for an old truck, was it worth it, or do you wish that you had just parked it and sold the good pieces?

I do not see any bubbles in the coolant tank and the conditioner has been kept up. I am the second owner.
Local truck mechanic that I just talked to advised me to just run it until it starts using more coolant. Said that it it very hard to find the leak if it uses only a little bit and they have worked on lots of trucks that have run 300,000 miles with a small coolant leak. Just change the engine oil more often.

Inframes have sure gone up in price the last 3 years, not sure if I park it maybe the inframe cost will drop by 50% in a year with the economy slowing.

Pat H

Posted 3/18/2009 15:03 (#648515 - in reply to #648505)
Subject: RE: sounds like a good deal - how much do you want for it?

Just kidding - I already have an engine apart.

Pat

headerpuncher

Posted 3/18/2009 14:39 (#648507 - in reply to #648491)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Ea. Washington

Son in Law had the same issue. Did the water pump, oil cooler, head etc and still did it. finally decided to overhaul it. found the liner o-rings had shrunk up allowing them to leak. Truck shops are pretty hungry now . First wanted 15K but finally agreed to do it for 10. No pitting in block as he is good at keeping the PH right in coolant. Also put in new injectors so that added 3K but he got a 3 yr waranty from Cat and it was KW that did the job. Should be good to go if some work ever shows up. If you can drain the oil and let it set for a couple days with a clean pan under drain hole and if you get water pretty good indication it's the liners.

Claymore

Posted 3/18/2009 15:36 (#648530 - in reply to #648447)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

You have nothing to loose by dumping a bunch of Silver Seal stop leak into the coolant. A 3406 has a large cooling system, so I would start at 5 tubes, but don't be afraid to dump in 10 or more, they only cost $.75 each. I have an old Pete with a 1693 Cat (the predecessor to the 3406) and it was leaking coolant out the head gasket to the outside of the engine, and Silver Seal has kept it leak free for 7 years.

poorboy

Posted 3/19/2009 12:55 (#649518 - in reply to #648530)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Southern Alberta

Might be just the right fix for a low useage truck with a small leak!

msb

Posted 3/18/2009 17:52 (#648591 - in reply to #648447)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Lapel, In

I would suspect a pitted cylinder liner.Those Cats are bad about cavitation eating away cylinder liners. Had one do the same a few years ago. If you try to repair it yourself, it take some special tools to replace the liners. I would pull the pan and pressurize the radiator to find the leak. That is what my buddy did to my 3406E. Found two b aqd liners.Then it took $7,000 to replace the two liners,reseal the other four liners and clean up the mess.
And you could have a lot to lose by dumping in Silver Seal if it is a pitted cylinder liner. I would not do that. Think of the additional mess that could create if it went into the oil.

Edited by msb 3/18/2009 17:54

DBH

Posted 3/18/2009 19:42 (#648674 - in reply to #648591)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Eastern Washington

Had one of my 3406B's doing the same thing last summer, dropped the pan and pressurized the radiator, found coolant coming from around the outside of one liner. Had a local truck shop do an inframe, o rings crumbled when they pulled the liners. $3300 for labor, $1550 for after market kit (Mcbee), plus head work, Got out of jail for a little over $5700 total.

briannnebo

Posted 3/18/2009 19:51 (#648681 - in reply to #648674)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Nebo, Kentucky

http://www.mylittlesalesman.com/frontend/content/browse.aspx?status...

I was curious, so I googled it.

poorboy

Posted 3/19/2009 13:13 (#649532 - in reply to #648681)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Southern Alberta

Used motors may be an option. They sure vary a lot in price!

Wonder how you know if you are getting something better than you have, as they have probably sat a while with out running (would o-rings all dry up and leak soon)?

CARTMAN

Posted 3/18/2009 19:50 (#648678 - in reply to #648447)
Subject: RE: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

THERE IS ANTIFREEZE ON THE MARKET THAT WILL NOT HURT YOUR MOTOR IF IT GETS IN THE CRANKCASE. NORMAL ANTIFREEZE WILL RUIN YOUR BEARINGS AND TURBO QUICKLY . MENDTITE IS A GOOD STOP LEAKE THAT WILL NOT PLUG YOUR HEATER CORES. MENDTITE IS ALMOST AS GOOD AS A JESUS ACT.SEVICE YOUR WATER FILTER. USE THAT ANTIFREEZE, MENDTITE,AND RUN IT. DON.T SPEND ANYMORE $$. THIS A FARM TRUCK . YOU CAN PATCH IT AN PROBABLY GET YEARS OUT OF IT.

CATGUY

Posted 3/18/2009 21:13 (#648788 - in reply to #648447)
Subject: RE: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Iowa

I don't know where you live, but there are probably some ex-CAT mechanics out there that have been laid off that would probably be willing to help you for a reasonable rate/normal wage. We just laid off 48 people, and half were mechanics and weldors (at heavy equipment division). If you had less than 5 years employment, you were gone. That division had been slow to dead for 6 months and the owner just couldn't "carry" them anymore. It was no surprize to any of those employees, they could see the "writing on the wall". Our truck shop has also sent out a mechanic to work with an owner in his own shop to rebuild a truck engine. Owner tries to remove as much as possible, then calls for a mechanic. Next day, mechanic works for 8 hours and lines out owner on what to do(or NOT do) as much as possible, then leaves and doesn't return until owner calls again and asks for help and/or he has ALL the parts cleaned up and ready to go. Don't know what you think of those options, but it is something to think about. As others have mentioned, you really have to pull the oil pan and see where the coolant is coming from. May need to pressurize the cooling system, but it may drip all by itself overnight. There are some unusual spots that coolant can enter in oil, like IF the water pump "weep hole" is plugged, then coolant can push passed the water seal and oil seal and runs down the geartrain area in the front cover(thus coolant drips down front cover when to oil pan is off), BUT that only requires a reman water pump. Honestly, you wouldn't be that lucky. Best guess is the leaky liner seals.

poorboy

Posted 3/19/2009 13:11 (#649529 - in reply to #648788)
Subject: RE: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Southern Alberta

I live in Alberta, and the economy is still strong here, nothing seems to be dropping yet. Shop rates are still double what they were 4-5 years ago, and help wanted adds everywhere. There are signs of slowing though, and hopefully I can isolate the leak and if it a major repair then maybe it will more affordable to fix in 4 or 5 months.

I had a good look at the water pump and it sits up high on the right front side of the engine, but I do not see a spot for a weep hole. Any idea of where it is located (front/rear/ center/etc)?

Sent an oil sample for confirmation of coolant. The oil on the dipstick is much thicker on the bottom portion of the dipstick, but when I dumped out a couple of gallons of oil after the engine sitting for a couple of days, it is not a white creamy color. It is however a very thick black consistency. Not sure if I just caught it very early, or if something else is going on. I have only seen coolant in passenger vehicles with small oil capacities and they turn very white. Not sure what a small amount of coolant in 11-12 gallons of oil would look like.

Thanks to everyone for the different experiences and insight.

CATGUY

Posted 3/19/2009 20:21 (#649827 - in reply to #649529)
Subject: RE: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Iowa

Glad to see that you sent in an oil sample. Your first post seemed to read that you were darn sure that the engine had coolant the oil. Do you see a white, milky substance on the blowby hose or the underside of the oil filler cap? If you can get to an easy-to-remove valve cover(6 bolts), then look for the white, milky substance on the underneath side of that valve cover. On your engine, you must have the newer style water pump casting/housing that CAT put the weep hole towards the engine block (when it is mounted on the engine). You will probably need a mirror and a flashlight to even TRY to see the hole. [CAT puts the weep hole out-of-sight, because too many people complain and/or over-react if a little coolant or coolant staining is on the yellow paint under that external weep hole. Note: It is normal for just a very little seepage out of this hole, this is how the water pump seal lubricates itself.] Now, If it causes a puddle of coolant, that's a different story. One thing, you mentioned, is that it was worse the colder it was. Are you sure you don't have any external leaks? Radiator hoses and heater hoses can seep overnight as they cool down and cause what we call "cold water leak". You say it is losing 1 quart of coolant per day, I am surprised that when you drained a couple of gallons of oil out AFTER the truck had set for awhile( a day or so, I assume) that you didn't get coolant out immediately after you just remove the oil pan drain plug. Does your radiator overflow hose have coolant drips on it ? If it is hard to see, pull the bottom end up(of the overflow hose) and let it hang outside the frame rail, so you can look at it in the future. (Like mid-day after it has been warmed up and had a hard pull on the engine.) Maybe a cylinder head gasket is starting to seep/leak, BUT it only lets combustion gases push by the fire ring when cold, once warmed up it holds OK.(I know this sounds unusual for a head gasket to act this way, but I seen this more than once) Thus, when cold, the engine pushes some coolant out of the overflow as you start your first run, or just after noon lunch.

Eric9870

Posted 3/18/2009 21:33 (#648832 - in reply to #648447)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Upstate New York

Had the same thing happen to our 3406E 550, it was the o rings on the liners, there was some pitting so we did the overhaul while it was apart. A year later we were getting milk in the fuel tanks, o rings on the injector cups were bad, they didn't get changed at the time of the overhaul because computer said that the injectors were fine. If o rings are your problem, CHANGE orings on injectors!

CATGUY

Posted 3/18/2009 21:52 (#648867 - in reply to #648832)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Iowa

You really didn't get an "overhaul" IF the cylinder head wasn't either replaced(with reman) or completely gone thru. If the cylinder head had been completely gone thru, the injector sleeves would have been resealed. The seals are actually in the CAT cylinder head gasket kit set. I know, I know, people have different ideas what "An Overhaul" really consists of.

sdnative

Posted 3/19/2009 13:56 (#649564 - in reply to #648447)
Subject: Re: possible causes for coolant in oil on cat 3406E?

Where are you located at. I had a 3406e with the same problem and I took it to West Texas Peterbuilt and had an inframe done on it. 1 month later the pistons and sleeves scored again due to the machanic putting the motor back together wrong. So now I have a $20,000 dollar truck with a $40,000 dollar motor in it.

There is an oil cooler on the passenger side of the truck that could be bad and could also just be a head gasket or the head is cracked. I'll sell ya a nice KW for $20,000 with 34,000 miles on the motor...

Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

(Delete cookies)