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havin'funfarming

Posted 9/7/2015 04:09 (#4775119)
Subject: Question about Delco Remy starters

Manitoba, Canada

I have a tractor that I need to use that the starter quit working yesterday. It has a Series 40mt Type 250 starter. I noticed that another tractor I have has a series 40mt Type 400. Visually it looks the same and I was wondering if I could just swap them out to get me by. What is the difference between "type 250" and "type 400"? FWIW the tractor with the bad starter is a Case 2470 and the "donor" tractor is an 875 Versatile. It is a long weekend so I can't just go get a new one. It's probably not going to work but I figured I'd ask. TIA

hillfarmer

Posted 9/7/2015 05:57 (#4775151 - in reply to #4775119)
Subject: RE: Question about Delco Remy starters

875 will have 11 tooth

and the other maybe a 12 tooth

ccjersey

Posted 9/7/2015 07:12 (#4775208 - in reply to #4775151)
Subject: RE: Question about Delco Remy starters

Faunsdale, AL

I would check rotation and count teeth on starter drive. If they are the same i would swap them and try it.

Offroadnt

Posted 9/7/2015 07:54 (#4775270 - in reply to #4775119)
Subject: RE: Question about Delco Remy starters

Southern Alberta Canada

Got any other Case tractors around? They are all the same on the 504 diesels.

havin'funfarming

Posted 9/7/2015 08:08 (#4775303 - in reply to #4775270)
Subject: RE: Question about Delco Remy starters

Manitoba, Canada

The only other Case Inhave around is a 1070 and it has a 413?? Or something like that. It's a much lighter looking starter anyways.

Centerplate

Posted 9/7/2015 07:59 (#4775277 - in reply to #4775119)
Subject: RE: Question about Delco Remy starters

wis south border

After checking the number of teeth, rotation, you also need to check the distance the drive gear moves. Flywheels on two different engines could different distance from the starter flange.

havin'funfarming

Posted 9/7/2015 08:12 (#4775312 - in reply to #4775277)
Subject: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Manitoba, Canada

I was hoping for an easy answer but it sounds like there are a lot of variables that have to line up for it to work. Now I know what to check for when I pull the other one off though. Thanks!

hillfarmer

Posted 9/7/2015 09:29 (#4775463 - in reply to #4775312)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

12 on the 2470

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-2090-2290-2390-2470-2590-2670-2...

looks like 11 on the 875

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CW-11T-STARTER-DRIVE-VERSATILE-TRACTOR-CUMM...

havin'funfarming

Posted 9/7/2015 14:04 (#4775912 - in reply to #4775463)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Manitoba, Canada

Ok. Thanks! I ended up taking it apart this morning and cleaning it up. There was quite a bit of debris from brushes??? or whatever throughout it so I cleaned everything up good. I think the debris caused the brushes to stick. After taking them out and cleaning them they slide good now but are worn so I should get a new set and replace them. It seems to be working now so I am reinstalling it and will find out after I have dinner. I've never gone that deep into a starter before but they are actually fairly easy to work on.

hillfarmer

Posted 9/7/2015 15:03 (#4775995 - in reply to #4775912)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

new brushes would be about 3/4 to 7/8 long

been 20 years since I've seen a new one

ccjersey

Posted 9/7/2015 16:02 (#4776099 - in reply to #4775995)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Faunsdale, AL

The 42MT brushes are 23 mm long new.

havin'funfarming

Posted 9/7/2015 16:03 (#4776100 - in reply to #4775995)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Manitoba, Canada

Ok. Some were probably 3/4 long but some were definitely shorter. The biggest problem I saw though was that several were worn at an angle. My guess is that the spring presses more on one side than the other and the short side of some would not be longer than 1/2 inch. Thanks for the help

Edit to add: forgot to mention that it did work. Using the tractor as I'm typing this.

Edit to add: they are far short of 23 mm long. I will have to get a new set as soon as possible. Thanks!

Edited by havin'funfarming 9/7/2015 16:05

ccjersey

Posted 9/7/2015 16:07 (#4776110 - in reply to #4776100)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Faunsdale, AL

Google search comes up with lots of brush sets for sale if you want to do it yourself.

havin'funfarming

Posted 9/7/2015 16:15 (#4776125 - in reply to #4776110)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Manitoba, Canada

Perfect. I think I will do it myself so I will do just that. Thanks again!

Gerald J.

Posted 9/7/2015 17:03 (#4776236 - in reply to #4776125)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

You don't just stuff in the new brushes. Ideally you use a lathe to turn the commutator back straight, then a mica under cutting tool to remove some of the mica between the commutator bars so you have a fresh commutator surface, then you fit the brushes to the new commutator diameter.

As a minimum you need to fit the brushes to the commutator by wrapping a strip of sand paper the width of the commutator half way around the commutator cutting side out, then insert one new brush and slide the paper preferably in the direction the armature rotates to carve the inside of the brush to fit the commutator. Its much harder to get a good fit when the commutator is worn into ridges. Then you do the other brushes. If you don't fit the brushes to the curve of the commutator you will burn them rapidly and won't be good to the copper of the commutator either. An experienced auto electric shop can turn and re brush a starter in half an hour. If it needs that attention, it might also need bushings at an added cast. When the bushings wear the armature drags on the field poles and won't crank an engine.

Gerald J.

havin'funfarming

Posted 9/7/2015 18:07 (#4776345 - in reply to #4776236)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Manitoba, Canada

Ok. Learned something else. I think I understand what the parts are that you refer to. If what I say doesn't make sense let me know.

I didn't know about fitting the brushes until now. I don't think it will be a problem for me to do it though. I don't have a metal lathe but I do have a wood lathe. I think I will turn a piece of wood to just below the size of the commutator and then attach some sandpaper to that and then shape the brushes against that. Any thoughts about doing it that way?

The mica between the commutator bars appeared to be at least a 1/32 or so below the bars yet. Is that enough?

As far as the bushings they all looked good and the outside of the armature was somewhat rusted and the field coils were as well and there was no sign of anything rubbing. I cleaned the rust and other debris off of them so I was hoping I could assume there will be adequate wear left in the bushings to keep using them.
I don't want to dump any more money than I have to as the tractor is basically disposable as soon as a major part fails. But I do want to have it reliable as it needs to run every day. Thanks for any tips you can provide.

hillfarmer

Posted 9/7/2015 18:20 (#4776362 - in reply to #4776345)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

At one time, the contact parts of the solenoid where "buyable"

the power stud bolts come out, and they can be turned 180 degrees

to get new surface

have to take all 4 post out at the esame time

big studs and little coil post nuts

Gerald J.

Posted 9/7/2015 18:22 (#4776366 - in reply to #4776345)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Sandpaper on the commutator is the technique that has been used for centuries. By pulling the sand paper in the rotation direction of the armature, the rocking of the brush in the holder is accommodated which usually makes the end of the brush not perfectly centered on the curve on the commutator. The wood commutator smaller than the copper commutator shouldn't be any smaller radius than the thickness of the sandpaper but working outside the starter doesn't allow for the rock of the brush in the holder from the torque of the friction riding on the commutator.

Mica 1/32" below the copper is fine, just that when the brushes are worn out, usually parts of the commutator are worn enough that getting the commutator back cylindrical takes it down that for and then the mica needs to be shortened because it is harder than the copper and as the copper wears the mica kicks the brush away from the commutator causing arcing that burns the commutator and the brushes much faster.

Gerald J.

havin'funfarming

Posted 9/7/2015 18:34 (#4776392 - in reply to #4776366)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Manitoba, Canada

Ok. What you said about shaping the brushes makes sense. I will shape the brushes that way.

I was surprised that the brushes were worn as bad as they were when I took them out because the commutator bars looked so good. But then again I don't know what I'm doing so I really didn't know how it was supposed to look. But I do remember that what I just found out is mica between the bars was still significantly below the surface.

Thanks once more!

Gerald J.

Posted 9/7/2015 22:05 (#4776998 - in reply to #4776392)
Subject: RE: Ok. Thanks everybody!

Brushes wear fastest of any starter part. So its common for them to need replacing.

Gerald J.

Offroadnt

Posted 9/8/2015 14:08 (#4777899 - in reply to #4775119)
Subject: RE: Question about Delco Remy starters

Southern Alberta Canada

Just a quick note, I know we interchange starters between our 2290s 504s and W18/W20s 401s (converted to 12V) all the time. The big Delco and smaller starters interchange and start everything no problem.

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