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why not use propane injection on diesels?
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tommyw-5088
Posted 3/14/2008 22:30 (#334193)
Subject: why not use propane injection on diesels?


Central Texas
that might be better than all the junk on a "07 diesel .

the propane injection would create more power and burn cleaner ,from what i have read the 2010 diesels will have urea injection in the exhaust aftertreatment .... more $$ out of us farmers pockets .

i can already hear it now " fert, is high because of the diesels using urea."

propane injection and bio diesel .... nah, makes too much sense.

Edited by tommyw-5088 3/14/2008 22:34
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msb
Posted 3/14/2008 22:52 (#334209 - in reply to #334193)
Subject: Re: why not use propane injection on diesels?


Lapel, In
It was used in the late 60s and early 70s. Trouble was it did indeed create more power . Had a couple of customers that blew pistons out through the sides of a couple 4020s when they turned them up too high. With today's computer controlled fuel injection , it would probably be a workable deal.Not sure there would be that much benefit to using it with the diesel technology of today. Interesting thought though.
The urea approach might make exhaust injection into the soil a bit more practical?

Edited by msb 3/14/2008 22:54
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tallgrassneil
Posted 3/14/2008 22:55 (#334210 - in reply to #334193)
Subject: you can, tommy!



West Texas
I take it you never heard of Johnathon Goodwin, the 100mpg dude? He has set up a company to produce kits for just that purpose; propane-injected diesels. Also, CNG injection, and his favorite, hydrogen. Not only that, but biodiesel, too.

I am looking at a kit to convert the duramax to use propane injection. I just haven't nerved myself to pull the trigger, as there may be warranty issues. $4 diesel may override that concern, however.

Check out his website.

http://saeenergy.com/09_about.htm
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Jon Hagen
Posted 3/15/2008 00:03 (#334251 - in reply to #334210)
Subject: RE: you can, tommy!



Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND
See the white propane tank on the rear of my 1480 ? That's for the propane injected diesel engine. When the propane injector comes on, a guesstimated 50 extra HP are available, diesel smoke is gone, diesel rattle is gone, it sounds like a gasser.
With propane / diesel injection, the coolant temp goes down and you use less total gallons propane / diesel than when on diesel alone. I have mine set to burn about 25% propane.
And yes, that is one of THOSE AF combine rear axles. :-(

Red Rooster, the company that years ago made my simple old mechanical propane injector, now makes a computerized propane injection system that claims impressive MPG gains in electronic diesel engines.

http://www.acmecarb.com/rooster.html



Edited by Jon Hagen 3/15/2008 00:07




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davpal
Posted 3/15/2008 01:13 (#334276 - in reply to #334193)
Subject: RE: why not use propane injection on diesels?


A friend of mine was using propane injection on an older ford F-350 dually with one of the first 6.9 or 7.3 international diesels in it. He is really good at making stuff like that work. Seems like he told me it was dynoed and making around 600 ft lbs of torque at the rear wheels. I didn't have any reason to doubt him. Last time I saw it he was hauling about a 30 ft long fifth wheel trailer home from the fair with about 5-6 heavily weighted down vintage pulling tractors on there and all his equipment and tons of extra weights everywhere. I followed him up the entrance ramp for the freeway with my car and he was really hauling some @ss with that thing. Couldn't believe how it pulled that.
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Sand Flat Bob
Posted 3/15/2008 07:14 (#334319 - in reply to #334276)
Subject: Re: why not use propane injection on diesels?


As with a lot of stuff, with propane injection you better have a cylinder head temp. gage and watch it. Easy to get up too high and the crome comes off the rings, very expensive.

Bob
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gr ecks
Posted 3/15/2008 08:58 (#334374 - in reply to #334251)
Subject: RE: you can, tommy!


I thought about one of those back in the early 70's, but decided it was too much trouble to keep the propane to the tractor. I didn't realize they were still around. Didn't they bill it as the Rooster Booster?
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Curt Keiser
Posted 3/15/2008 09:05 (#334377 - in reply to #334251)
Subject: I got one of those too on my 1688........


Beresford, SD, between Sioux Falls and Sioux City
"THOSE AF combine rear axles. :-( "

Jon
What did you do , rebuild and reinforce or put different one on?

Another question..............
Would I gain in mileage by injecting LP in mechanically injected 5.9 Cummins in my pickup? Another words would combined gallons of LP and diesel be less than current gallons of diesel used?
Or would savings come from lower costs of LP fuel used.


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School Of Hard Knock
Posted 3/15/2008 09:07 (#334379 - in reply to #334251)
Subject: RE: you can, tommy!


just a tish NE of central ND
Jon Hagen - 3/15/2008 00:03

See the white propane tank on the rear of my 1480 ? That's for the propane injected diesel engine. When the propane injector comes on, a guesstimated 50 extra HP are available, diesel smoke is gone, diesel rattle is gone, it sounds like a gasser.
With propane / diesel injection, the coolant temp goes down and you use less total gallons propane / diesel than when on diesel alone. I have mine set to burn about 25% propane.
And yes, that is one of THOSE AF combine rear axles. :-(

Red Rooster, the company that years ago made my simple old mechanical propane injector, now makes a computerized propane injection system that claims impressive MPG gains in electronic diesel engines.

http://www.acmecarb.com/rooster.html



HOw many gallons opf propane do you carry on your combine and how far does it go?(roughly)
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Ron in WKY
Posted 3/15/2008 09:17 (#334383 - in reply to #334251)
Subject: Re: why not use propane injection on diesels?


Jon,what would it cost today to set-up a combine with this system?TIA
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Jon Hagen
Posted 3/15/2008 10:21 (#334416 - in reply to #334377)
Subject: RE: I got one of those too on my 1688........



Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND
Curt Keiser - 3/16/2008 08:05

"THOSE AF combine rear axles. :-( "

Jon
What did you do , rebuild and reinforce or put different one on?

Another question..............
Would I gain in mileage by injecting LP in mechanically injected 5.9 Cummins in my pickup? Another words would combined gallons of LP and diesel be less than current gallons of diesel used?
Or would savings come from lower costs of LP fuel used.




I replaced the axle with the wider one from a salvage yard that better clears my chaff spreader. It got the reinforcing strap welded on before installing it.

In the case of our combine, it uses less combined gallons of propane / diesel than it does burning only diesel. It appears that the added propane helps the diesel burn faster/smoother /better, judged by no smoke, no rattle, and cooler operating temp while making more HP.

As to the Dodge / Cummins application. I would call Acme to get their take on it, should be a PH # in the link in my post.
My take is that the old mechanical fumigation system on my combine worked with most any turbo diesel.
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Jon Hagen
Posted 3/15/2008 10:29 (#334422 - in reply to #334379)
Subject: RE: you can, tommy!



Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND
School Of Hard Knock - 3/16/2008 08:07

Jon Hagen - 3/15/2008 00:03

See the white propane tank on the rear of my 1480 ? That's for the propane injected diesel engine. When the propane injector comes on, a guesstimated 50 extra HP are available, diesel smoke is gone, diesel rattle is gone, it sounds like a gasser.
With propane / diesel injection, the coolant temp goes down and you use less total gallons propane / diesel than when on diesel alone. I have mine set to burn about 25% propane.
And yes, that is one of THOSE AF combine rear axles. :-(

Red Rooster, the company that years ago made my simple old mechanical propane injector, now makes a computerized propane injection system that claims impressive MPG gains in electronic diesel engines.

http://www.acmecarb.com/rooster.html



HOw many gallons opf propane do you carry on your combine
and how far does it go?(roughly)


The tank holds 48 gallons at 80%, we will use a bit more than 1/2 in a long day.
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Jon Hagen
Posted 3/15/2008 10:34 (#334425 - in reply to #334383)
Subject: Re: why not use propane injection on diesels?



Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND
Ron in WKY - 3/16/2008 08:17

Jon,what would it cost today to set-up a combine with this system?TIA


I have not priced one for over 10 years, but my old mechanical aspirator system back then was cheap, I seem to remember under $200 ?
That is without the tank. At the time, salvage yards were full of used tanks off tractors and trucks for less than $100.
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John Burns
Posted 3/15/2008 10:35 (#334427 - in reply to #334193)
Subject: RE: why not use propane injection on diesels?



Pittsburg, Kansas

I would love to be using LP fumigation on our Diesel tractors and combines if it were not for the hassle of filling the propane. I can't see but what it would not be a better more efficient burn.

I have no experience with the systems and have only talked to a few that have run them but it would seem to me the older engines that did not burn as efficient as the newer engines (ie smoked more) would tend to gain more benefit than the latest engines with higher injection pressures and electronic ignitions that are already a lot more efficient. Not saying it would not be good on the newer engines, but maybe more for added power more than increasing efficiency. I'm surprised EPA isn't demanding LP fumigation or something for better emmissions.

John 

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Jon Hagen
Posted 3/15/2008 10:38 (#334430 - in reply to #334319)
Subject: Re: why not use propane injection on diesels?



Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND
Sand Flat Bob - 3/16/2008 06:14

As with a lot of stuff, with propane injection you better have a cylinder head temp. gage and watch it. Easy to get up too high and the crome comes off the rings, very expensive.

Bob


Acme really frowned on any boost above 20% more power. Some of the pickup truck propane /diesel outfits like Bully dog lay on propane rates so high it scares the heck out of me.
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plowboy
Posted 3/15/2008 13:44 (#334506 - in reply to #334427)
Subject: RE: why not use propane injection on diesels?



Brazilton KS

John, where you have traditionally done most of your refueling at your bases, it really wouldn't be that hard to service them. Weight is not a big deal on tractors which are already carrying considerable ballast....make the tank sufficient to run two diesel tanks and you would usually be back to the fixed fuel depot by the time it was empty.....if it runs empty you still have what you've got now.  Keep in mind that the acres between refueling are going to increase considerably because of the LP.

 

I had it all figured out back years ago before the power box became an option for the underpowered combine....all I think would be needed is a pressure switch in the intake to sense turbo pressure and a solenoid valve to turn the fuel on. I suppose a regulator would be a good idea. I don't think a vaporizer would really be needed with a turbo...at 350o or so it's gonna vaporize as soon as it's injected into the intake pipe. The tank location and the fact that we fueled combines in the field most all the time back then were the holdups that kept me from ever getting it done. .

 

What's the price of lp now? I'm thinking this is a good idea, and I think I have most of the stuff laying around.



Edited by plowboy 3/15/2008 13:46
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Jon Hagen
Posted 3/15/2008 14:22 (#334521 - in reply to #334506)
Subject: Re: why not use propane injection on diesels?



Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND
The Red Rooster fumigator will not over fuel like some un metered systems, if you lug the engine down or shift up / throttle back, because the system senses air flow in the intake pipe. as the air velocity in the pipe slows, it automatically backs off on the propane flow.

The system consists of an adjustable needle valve in a venturi that you braze in the air intake pipe, positioned at 90 degrees to the direction of air flow. This needle valve adjusts the maximum amount of propane you want to inject. Feeding this needle valve / venturi is the same two stage regulator you would find on a small air cooled gen set that runs on propane. The two stage regulator is designed to run on vapor only from the vapor port of your tank.

Like an automotive propane two stage regulator, the final stage is set slightly below atmospheric pressure, so no propane will flow from the regulator unless it senses a bit of vacuum from the engine. This is what meters propane to balance the air / propane mixture at any engine rpm / load.

To turn the thing on / off, you have a master toggle switch in the cab. A micro switch is mounted on the throttle linkage so the propane solenoid is only activated above 1/2 throttle opening. It is connected to the fuel solenoid mounted at the regulator fuel input.
a wire from the throttle linkage switch also runs to a jeweled indicator light in the cab to indicate when the fuel solenoid is on /open.



Edited by Jon Hagen 3/15/2008 14:23
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John Burns
Posted 3/15/2008 17:11 (#334589 - in reply to #334506)
Subject: RE: why not use propane injection on diesels?



Pittsburg, Kansas

One problem with these modern electronically controlled unit injector engines is they can think they are delivering enough fuel and not be. Both our 9200 and 9400 at a few years of age were checked for boost pressure and it was low. The problem was the injectors were worn, not delivering enough fuel, meaning low horsepower output. Of course the answer is to put new injectors in (at only maybe 1500-2000 hours) at great expense. The tractors started fine, ran fine, didn't smoke, the injectors were just worn enough they were not delivering full fuel. We did not even know we had a problem but there had been other tractors found with low power so mechanic checked ours. A "chip" would have fixed them or propane either one to put them back up to horsepower. (before I get chastised about duration of injection and other technical stuff, yeah I realize it but the tractors ran and operated fine). My guess is if I checked the boost pressure under full load now it would show the injectors are starting to wear again and we are very slowly loosing power. Tractors should all have boost pressure gauges. Don't know why we have not put them on ours. Also fuel pressure gauges to tell when filters are going south.

John 

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plowboy
Posted 3/15/2008 20:43 (#334723 - in reply to #334589)
Subject: RE: why not use propane injection on diesels?



Brazilton KS
yep and yep to the fuel pressure and boost gauges.
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jdg
Posted 3/16/2008 00:24 (#334903 - in reply to #334193)
Subject: RE: why not use propane injection on diesels?


Cen IL
I set my old 1460 up with LP after consulting Jon Hagen and a friend of mine who had run one when he farmed. Acmecarb set me up with the regulator and needle valve/injector. I have not set it up as high as it will safely go , but intend to get it there this fall. I mounted my 48 gallon lp tank down alongside the left frame rail. Easy to check and fill there. jeff
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