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Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???
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seedcleaner
Posted 12/11/2011 10:48 (#2096794)
Subject: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


Mid-Missouri
For the 100th time, I am complaining about the poor cold weather starting of our 04 Gehl 7810 machine. It is an 1104 motor with turbo and electric bosch injection, very similiar to the early 24 valve Dodge trucks. I have redone the battery setup, added another positive cable to the starter, replaced the starter with a bigger, longer one. Synthetic engine oil. All of this has helped but it isn't enough. The machine just doesn't crank over very fast and it boils out white smoke until it starts. The slow cranking is a symptom of all these Gehls with the Perkins (very similar to the motor in the 4000 series Spra-Coupes). Many techs have told me of the slow cranking of these machines. If I hook jumpers up to the machine, it cranks over much better but still requires 10 seconds of cranking at 32 degrees Fahrenheit. The glow plugs don't come on until about 10 degrees or less, or when I unplug the coolant sensor to force it on, which I often do. They help make it pop off but not alot. So...

what about the hydraulic fluid? This motor has to crank over a few big pumps. Do they destroke while the engine is cranking? How does that all work? Would synthetic fluid help? Can it be mixed with the JD hy-guard currently used? Any advice appreciated.
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iseedit
Posted 12/11/2011 10:55 (#2096805 - in reply to #2096794)
Subject: RE: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???



central - east central Minnesota -

Can you by-pass the glow plug sensor and wire it to a switch/button, that you can manually hold on (pre) before cranking ?
My Cat 247B has this, and hold it for 30 seconds, and it fires right up (Cat use's a perk, with their spec's, as does/did ASV).
That would be easiest.
Does it have a block heater? Oil pan heater? Hydraulic heater?
Consider these - http://www.arctic-fox.com/

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mndairyfarmer
Posted 12/11/2011 11:03 (#2096817 - in reply to #2096794)
Subject: Re: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


swmn
did you ever get ahold of gehl or perkins to ask about the computer update? they did it to ours and it was night and day difference in starting and nothing else was changed.
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seedcleaner
Posted 12/11/2011 12:09 (#2096914 - in reply to #2096817)
Subject: Re: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


Mid-Missouri
I talked to Ryan and he thought the main thing the update did was leave the grid heater on for a longer time. If it did more such as timing etc... I would really look into it more, and I will when time permits.

Yes I am going to find a way to engage the grid heater manually as I am sure this would help, but it still cranks too slow.

It does have a block heater. I can plug it in for two hours on a 30 degree day in a shed and you can feel the heat rising up at the valve cover, but it still will crank slow. That is one reason I am thinking the hyrdos are really pulling power, as they don't get warmed up from the heater. Another reason people with Spra-Coupes dont complain, no hydro drag.?
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RickB
Posted 12/11/2011 12:19 (#2096923 - in reply to #2096914)
Subject: Re: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???



New York's Hudson Valley
seedcleaner - 12/11/2011 12:09

Another reason people with Spra-Coupes dont complain, no hydro drag.?


That, and less call for a Spra-Coupe @ freezing or below than there is for a SSL.
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farmking5088
Posted 12/11/2011 13:18 (#2097007 - in reply to #2096923)
Subject: Re: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


Land of Lincoln, Illinois
My case 450 turns over kinda slow when cold but always starts. I thought about trying synthetic hydraulic oil, maybe that would help. Anyone try the switch?
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nevinstobbe
Posted 12/11/2011 15:45 (#2097180 - in reply to #2096794)
Subject: Re: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


Manitoba, Canada
hydraulic element heater? Block circulation heater or webasto/proheater. Synthetic fluids.
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sdan27
Posted 12/11/2011 15:49 (#2097187 - in reply to #2096794)
Subject: Re: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


Excuse me if you've checked all these things already but I've been dealing with similar issues on a silage truck we run year round. If you can disable the engine from starting, crank it a bunch and then feel all over your battery cables to see if they are getting warm anywhere as that would be a bad spot. Check your ground cables the same way and make sure where they ground on the block or frame is good. The starter on the truck grounded through starter and I noticed it was getting warm on the starter flange. I took it off and there was a gasket stuck in between the two. I took the gasket out and had the starter gone through and it still cranks over slower than I'd like so I don't really know what else to go through now.
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db1
Posted 12/11/2011 16:53 (#2097263 - in reply to #2096794)
Subject: RE: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


I had the same problem with a Gehl 4615
I went to Lafountaine generator exchange in Lafountaine, IN 1-800-704-1334
they had a gear reduction starter for the Perkins
he said they do a lot of work with Perkins diesels
he also said there were 4 different starters for the Perkins so you need it in front of you if you call them
mine cost $300 but it starts like a different skid loader
I will do my jd 4430 next with a gear reduction starter
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RodInNS
Posted 12/11/2011 18:07 (#2097355 - in reply to #2096794)
Subject: RE: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


Dunno the machine.... but things to think about on a Perkins... If it's still got the ole Lucas starter... at one time they had a 4.5" and a 5". If you've got teh small one you might look at getting the bigger one. You can also look at upsizing the cables to 2/0 or greater and installing the largest battery that can fit the hole... which could be a problem.
Could be that the starter simply needs a service too...
Brushes don't last forever.

Rod
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seedcleaner
Posted 12/11/2011 19:04 (#2097446 - in reply to #2097355)
Subject: RE: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


Mid-Missouri
I have replaced the starter. It is longer as well as a planetary reduction. Machine has 1100 hours. Starter has about 400 hours. I have gone through every battery cable/terminal on it. Even when you jump it from a big machine running, it does crank over much better, but still doesn't pop off good at all. Any old Cummins would pop off 10 times faster. This one just pours white smoke out of the exhaust.
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RodInNS
Posted 12/11/2011 23:04 (#2098049 - in reply to #2097446)
Subject: RE: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


I dunno. I never had a lot of faith in gear reduction starters unless it really has a higher KW cranking power...
If you can make it spin faster by attaching a set of jumper cables that says to me that the OEM cables/battery can not supply enough.
Other than that I'd wonder about the fuel system or engine health? A primary side fuel leak where it loses prime, bad injectors/poor spray pattern or lowish compression are all going to contribute...
A newer engine ~should~ crack right off at 32 degrees easily enough without help.

Rod
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mndairyfarmer
Posted 12/12/2011 12:38 (#2098777 - in reply to #2097446)
Subject: RE: Skidsteer cold weather starting. What effect does the hydraulic fluid oil viscosity have???


swmn

i think that is right, the preheater stayed on longer and also kicked in  at a warmer temp. that is a heckava good skid, hope you find the problem. the cummins is  good too. cheaper on fuel but doesnt have the power and torque that the perkins had. did you dnow they are replacing the 7810 with a newer model?

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