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A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat
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Ray316
Posted 12/8/2011 10:57 (#2091425)
Subject: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Does anyone know if there were any SIGNIFICANT changes or improvements between a 1998 C12 Cat engine and a 2003 C12 Cat engine?
They are BOTH 410HP.

I would like to know the pros and cons because there are often important differences associated with the SAME model engine within different years.
If so, it is of interest to me to know those difference(s) and their reputations between these 2 specific years.

If engine serial numbers are needed in addition to knowing the years of engine manufacture, please advise.
Thank You
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CATGUY
Posted 12/8/2011 19:46 (#2092245 - in reply to #2091425)
Subject: RE: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Iowa

Both have the same problems, BUT that 2003 model is consided the "bridge engine" model.

It will have higher exhaust temps, and we have seen eroded turbo "hot" housings and exhaust "center sections", because of those temps, and in addition to that, CAT screwed up and had the fuel settings wrong on those engines and caused even more heat to enter the exhaust. It took them about 3-4 updates to get their fuel setting numbers correct.
 
On any 2003 C-12 engine, those numbers needs to be checked to insure that update/change got done WITH THE LATEST NUMBERS(fuel settings) Would have to have an ECM downloaded to tell if it ever got done.

Seen turbos and exhaust manifold ruined in less than 6 months, when this isn't done correctly.[ Note: also need to test the ATAAC core ("air to air aftercooler") to insure it holds boost pressure also.]
 
Also, the 2003 models have more exhaust backpressure(emissions muffler, catalyst), thus tend to get a little less fuel economy, too.( if you illegally install a regular muffler, that I've read on another truck site, some years ago, that the mileage comes back)



Edited by CATGUY 12/8/2011 19:48
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Dennis SEND
Posted 12/8/2011 21:43 (#2092555 - in reply to #2091425)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat



CATGUY, I don't want to hijack the above post but if you read this please shoot me an e-mail I have a question for you about a C-12. Dennis SEND
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Ray316
Posted 12/8/2011 22:19 (#2092654 - in reply to #2092245)
Subject: RE: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


In my quest to make the correct decision I am trying to consider the problems with the trucks and their associated engines.
I want learn what problems may exist BEFORE I make a purchase
I did find out from an insurance standpoint that the 35000 GVW truck even though it is a 1996 will cost me $2400.per year (not counting the $700.00 plate)
The 2003 which is a few thousand less GVW with THE SAME EXACT insurance coverage will cost me $1350. ($1050. less per year, yet it is a MUCH newer truck)
That amazed me and I am reasonably sure that you are surprised by this FACT too
Through you,.... I now KNOW that this 2003 truck has a C12 "Bridge Engine".

A few more questions Catguy....
1)How much will it cost me to get the ECM read and to measure the after cooler the ATAAC core ("air to air aftercooler") pressure as you point out?
The correct fuel setting numbers must be known or I must find out what all this DATA in the ECM "should" readout to know if they MEET the latest updates from CAT.
Depending on what I find I may need some ECM Re-Programming, so what could I expect this procedure to cost?
Considering that this truck has over 700,000 miles on it I wouldn't think that these problems were not addressed, would you?

2.) How much would it cost (roughly) to convert an AIR START (1998 C12 truck) over to an Electric start C!2 ?
"IF" an electric starter will bolt up directly in place of this AIR STARTER I obviously need a starter, 4 batteries, AND battery boxes as well as Battery cables.
That doesn't appear to be a cheap modification AND will the electric starter bolt up in place of the existing air starter on that 1998 C12 truck?

Well thanks once again CatGuy.
RAY
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waterfowler
Posted 12/8/2011 22:24 (#2092667 - in reply to #2092654)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Wheatley AR
A 2003 truck could very likely have a 2002 engine in it.
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CATGUY
Posted 12/9/2011 03:25 (#2092998 - in reply to #2092555)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Iowa

Don't currently have e-mail.  Currently, I'm living in a extended stay motel, until I quit CAT in Feb 2012.

 

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CATGUY
Posted 12/9/2011 03:41 (#2093001 - in reply to #2092654)
Subject: RE: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Iowa

1. probably just one hour of shop time (Seattle = $116 per hour)

fuel settings(Updated ones) are on an Excel speadsheet on CAT's website for mechanics and dealerships. Just need the engine serial number, then I or a dealer can look them up and post them.

Reprogramming?  If just changing some parameters = top speed, cruise limits, etc = just shop time = easy to do.
                                BUT , if you mean rerating to more HP, then that all depends? (parts, CAT Factory service charge, Shop time charge)

2. I don't deal with prices (just call a dealer/foreman for an estimate), I almost 100 % positive that there is no difference in the bolt pattern on CAT's rear flywheel housing(where the starter mounts) thus an electric starter should bolt right up.
Note: some trucks only use 3 batteries(total)
2nd note: A truck, with an air starter, still has a battery(run cab electrical), thus It should have a battery box already. [Question is: Is is big enough?]

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CATGUY
Posted 12/9/2011 03:47 (#2093003 - in reply to #2092667)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Iowa

It is possible, but "bridge engines" released in Oct of 2002, so unless the OEM truck builder had a big inventory , of CAT engines, setting in their warehouse, My best guess is that a 2003 truck likely has C-12 "MBL" serial number prefix = Bridge Engine.

If it is a "2KS" prefix, than it is a Pre-2003 engine.

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CATGUY
Posted 12/9/2011 04:01 (#2093004 - in reply to #2092654)
Subject: cons of C-12


Iowa

Problems of C-12 engines;

 tend to be water pump weep hole can become plugged, thus when water pump seal leaks, it pushes coolant into the oil pan.
 
Next: the cylinder head gasket can seep coolant into the oil pan, BUT the new procedure and head gasket is a excellent repair= have great success, so if this has been done, it should be fine.
 
Next, the injector roller followers roller pin can fail , due to lack of interference fit between pin and its holder (there are updated parts for this= increase of the amount of metal for interference fit ) BUT it is an expensive repair=probably ruins cam, cyl. head must be pulled, and if cam is bad, then radiator and front cover must also come off. = $$$. CAT recommends ALL 6 get replaced(at customer's expense), during a repair, too(thus all get updated) Again, if this has been due, already, it should be OK.

Sometimes, We have seen failed valve cam followers, too, But not nearly as often has Injector cam followers.(Still expensive to repair



Edited by CATGUY 12/9/2011 12:39
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Schuerman Farms
Posted 12/9/2011 07:01 (#2093063 - in reply to #2093004)
Subject: RE: cons of C-12



WCMN
We have a 2003 Intl with a 2KS prefix C12
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Ray316
Posted 12/9/2011 07:59 (#2093134 - in reply to #2092998)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


From all that you have told me, I am not afraid of the C12, however I will check out that engine for the MBL serial number.
It would seem that the C12 is better than the CAT 3176B motor overall, and if the 3176B has 350,000 miles from lumber yard deliveries and the 2003 has 750,000 from LONG freight run deliveries,... they were operated under different conditions.

To have something else to go on, I was going to pay the $100 or so to have an oil analysis done on the 2003. Approximately $100 is how much the dealer said it would cost. He said, do what you are comfortable with.....no problem.
HOW comfortable are you with Oil Analysis used to judge or predict possible upcoming engine problems? Is it a good tool, in your opinion?

Considering that this truck has 750,000 miles and was part of a fleet, wouldn't you "venture a guess" that some of these problems you mentioned would have MOST LIKELY been addressed by now? ( such as turbo, injector and cam follower problems)

The 2003 truck was owned by a fleet from new, which means they owned it for 7 or 8 years with many continuous hours of operation. (engine warm without short runs)
The 1998 C12 has the air starter with 850,000 miles and a necessary AIR STARTER changeover. It is NOT an MBL C12 Bridge engine though.
The 1996 with 3176B engine has 350,000 miles and is extremely noisy in the cab, owned since new by the lumber yard, and cost $1050 dollars more for insurance than the 1998 or the 2003 per year. (Did I mention that I grossly dislike insurance companies and the games they play?)

I was hoping to stay with a Cat engine and have liked other CAT products in the past. (excavators and skid steers and even the 3208 Cat in an Oil Truck).
There are ALWAYS choices with ANY Truck BUT now that you know more about the trucks, I wonder which one(s) you would possibly eliminate??
*************************************************************************************************************************************
On another note, I am sorry to hear that you are leaving Caterpillar in February 2012, CatGuy.
It must be tough to be that far away from home living in an extended stay motel. It appears that Caterpillar doesn't appreciate the guy they have, because when I was in electronic engineering they would pay to relocate us and even help us with finding a home.
On the other side of the coin we were salary = work 60 and 80 hours per week and get paid for 40

It is my opinion that many people on this forum look forward to and appreciate both your knowledge and your responses as it pertains to any CAT engine.
I can be counted as one of those people.
I thank you for your thoughtful responses to my many questions and wish you well in whatever you choose to do in your future.
If it makes you feel any better, I work as an Electronic Technician in the maintenance department for the United States Postal Service,....a far cry from the engineering arena.
I do as much mechanical work as anything that pertains to REAL electronics, however.
Up until what you see now in the news concerning the post office, I am happier and that pretty much says it all.
RAY
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Dennis SEND
Posted 12/9/2011 08:53 (#2093272 - in reply to #2092998)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat



CATGUY - 12/9/2011 02:25

Don't currently have e-mail.  Currently, I'm living in a extended stay motel, until I quit CAT in Feb 2012.

 



OK then here is my question have a 00' model C-12 Cat with 275K in a 378 Peterbuilt (not that that really matters either) but anyways what is happening as you are driving down the road temp keeps climbing ever so slowly until it gets to 225 you can turn the manual switch on for the fan and it still does not bring the temp down, the stop/check engine light somes on stays on for 15-30 seconds then all of a sudden the temp will drop to the 180's and then this whole process starts over again probally happens on average every 15 minutes or so somethimes goes 30 minutes inbetween cycles, would this be sensors or the thermostats I asked at the local Peterbuilt dealer and the tech didn't think it would be thermostats but said if that it would be a reasonable cheap item to replace to eliminate the possibility since they are the orginal yet, I picked up a set but haven't put them yet should I put them in or do you think it could be something else. TIA Dennis SEND
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CATGUY
Posted 12/9/2011 10:06 (#2093425 - in reply to #2093272)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Iowa

Question: Can you hear a huge, loud roar of the engine fan, WHEN you turn on the manual fan switch?

Reason, I ask is because we see this fan clutches, that have an alum. hub on them slip so badly, that the fan never really gets "locked up", They just sit there and spin at 400 rpm, when they should be at 2400 -2500 rpm(locked up), if the engine was at 2100 rpm.  
 
I would still change the thermostats and their lip seals make sure you stake in those lips seals, CAT even recommends "retaining compound on the metal edges", so they stay in their press-fit)  I just use an automatic center punch, and dimple the alum. right above the metal lips (about 12-15 dimples per lip seal) I just hold the tool at an angle to punch/dimple it.

I am unsure IF your fan circuit is operated by CAT sensor or Peterbilt sensor, probably a CAT sensor. There is the possibility that it reads incorrectly( reads low), thus it is sending an incorrect signal to the CAT ecm to turn on the fan. (least likely cause)

Check/listen for the fan and change t-stats first. 



Edited by CATGUY 12/9/2011 12:37
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Ray316
Posted 12/9/2011 15:46 (#2093990 - in reply to #2093425)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


From all that you have told me, I am not afraid of the C12, however I will check out that engine for the MBL serial number.
It would seem that the C12 is better than the CAT 3176B motor overall, and if the 3176B has 350,000 miles from lumber yard deliveries and the 2003 has 750,000 from LONG freight run deliveries,... they were operated under different conditions.

To have something else to go on, I was going to pay the $100 or so to have an oil analysis done on the 2003. Approximately $100 is how much the dealer said it would cost. He said, do what you are comfortable with.....no problem.
HOW comfortable are you with Oil Analysis used to judge or predict possible upcoming engine problems? Is it a good tool, in your opinion?

Considering that this truck has 750,000 miles and was part of a fleet, wouldn't you "venture a guess" that some of these problems you mentioned would have MOST LIKELY been addressed by now? ( such as turbo, injector and cam follower problems)

The 2003 truck was owned by a fleet from new, which means they owned it for 7 or 8 years with many continuous hours of operation. (engine warm without short runs)
The 1998 C12 has the air starter with 850,000 miles and a necessary AIR STARTER changeover. It is NOT an MBL C12 Bridge engine though.
The 1996 with 3176B engine has 350,000 miles and is extremely noisy in the cab, owned since new by the lumber yard, and cost $1050 dollars more for insurance than the 1998 or the 2003 per year. (Did I mention that I grossly dislike insurance companies and the games they play?)

I was hoping to stay with a Cat engine and have liked other CAT products in the past. (excavators and skid steers and even the 3208 Cat in an Oil Truck).
There are ALWAYS choices with ANY Truck BUT now that you know more about the trucks, I wonder which one(s) you would possibly eliminate??
*************************************************************************************************************************************
On another note, I am sorry to hear that you are leaving Caterpillar in February 2012, CatGuy.
It must be tough to be that far away from home living in an extended stay motel. It appears that Caterpillar doesn't appreciate the guy they have, because when I was in electronic engineering they would pay to relocate us and even help us with finding a home.
On the other side of the coin we were salary = work 60 and 80 hours per week and get paid for 40

It is my opinion that many people on this forum look forward to and appreciate both your knowledge and your responses as it pertains to any CAT engine.
I can be counted as one of those people.
I thank you for your thoughtful responses to my many questions and wish you well in whatever you choose to do in your future.
If it makes you feel any better, I work as an Electronic Technician in the maintenance department for the United States Postal Service,....a far cry from the engineering arena.
I do as much mechanical work as anything that pertains to REAL electronics, however.
Up until what you see now in the news concerning the post office, I am happier and that pretty much says it all.
RAY
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Ray316
Posted 12/9/2011 18:50 (#2094263 - in reply to #2093425)
Subject: 2003 C12 engine


I got the serial number today off that 2003 Truck with the C12 engine, today.
The truck had a manufacture date of 4/2002
The C12 engine has a 2KS serial number.

The owner said 355/410HP MT for the engine, however, the tag said ADV 355HP 370HP MAX
I think that would imply that this particular C12 engine was not a bridge engine, which would involve less ECM update problems.
I don't know if the fuel settings would be a problem or does this only apply to the bridge engine also?
RAY
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CATGUY
Posted 12/9/2011 19:01 (#2094284 - in reply to #2094263)
Subject: RE: 2003 C12 engine


Iowa

That engine won't need any fuel setting adjustments, that issue is only with "MBL" serial number prefixes(=bridge engine) in the C-12 family.

That's probably a good choice, it should probably have the latest design of cylinder block and cylinder head, which has just a little more metal at the top deck of the block, and a little more surface metal on the bottom deck of the cylinder head. It uses just a little slightly different head gasket, so a little more material gets clamped down, when the head gets the "double torque-turn procedure" .



Edited by CATGUY 12/9/2011 19:09
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Ray316
Posted 12/11/2011 15:21 (#2097158 - in reply to #2094284)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Thanks CatGuy,
It seems that other than the fact it has 730,000 on it, that this truck is a good choice.
How much faith do you put in engine oil analysis to predict engine wear and possible life left?

Given no catastrophic engine failure, how much would the average rebuild on this 2003 C12 Cat engine go?
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CATGUY
Posted 12/11/2011 20:43 (#2097664 - in reply to #2097158)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Iowa

Some of our "used truck" dealers bring in trucks just for a wheel HP dyno run, take an oil sample(HOT oil), and record engine blowby, during the dyno run.

Just remember, this "one-time" oil sample is only a "snapshot", Plus; 

How much time/mileage is on the oil being sampled, anyways? 2000, or 12,000 miles???

It may alert someone to an immediate,upcoming  failure,  But stuff still can happen in 100-200 miles too, after person buys something. You just never know.

Oil samples, taken regularly,  are preferred to watch trends.


With those kind of miles, and no records, i would like to see a person install new rod and main bearings(= cheap insurance). Seems like many companies are trying to push the limits on these types of maintenance items, lately.


Six months ago, we replaced an engine, that spun a bearing (C15) and it had 1.2 million miles on it and the owner NEVER replaced bearings!!! Honestly, I am surprized he got that far. I think I heard it was a $28,000 replacement

A couple years ago, I rebuilt 2 C-12 engines, one with 965,000 and other with around 945,000 miles. This was for preventive maintenance, as the owner/company has these trucks on special routes(ran 2 shifts per day), and were happy with these trucks/engines/mileage; so they chose a complete inframe overhaul with all OPT options(water pump, turbo, 6 injectors) Note: OPT = Overhaul Protection for Trucks
Another plus was; no emissions issues, like if they had choosen to purchased newer trucks.




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Ray316
Posted 12/12/2011 01:24 (#2098196 - in reply to #2097664)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


I would think that I could replace the connecting rod bearings and the main bearings with the engine in the truck on the C12 engine.
On the 2003 C12, how much do you think those parts would cost me?
The 1996 truck has the 3176B (9CK) with about 350,000 miles on it.
What is your FLAT OUT opinion of which truck or shall I say "engine" you would buy taking into consideration that one is a 1996 3176B engine with 350,000 miles and it's inherent design flaws and the other is a 2003 C12 with 730,000 miles on it? This 2003 C12 is not a bridge engine.
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CATGUY
Posted 12/12/2011 18:37 (#2099193 - in reply to #2098196)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Iowa

Buy the 2003 C-12.

Bearing parts are around  $700 with new oil and oil filter.  Shop would get $1600 for whole job.

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Ray316
Posted 12/13/2011 00:17 (#2100007 - in reply to #2099193)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


The only time I have ever done main bearings and connecting rod bearings is on a 350 cubic inch Gas engine and it was out of the car.
I used Plastigauge to measure the clearances and following the recommended torque specs everything went well.
These engines are small by comparison and having the engine block mounted on an engine stand makes for excellent working conditions.
I have done much of my own work but my only real experience has been in brake jobs engine and transmission replacements etc.
One reason I did this was to save money, but I feel my PRIMARY reason is that I have been very unsatisfied with what many "so called" professionals have done. They are far more experienced than me, but somehow many "fall off" because they leave any part of being thorough or meticulous at home

If I tackle this myself, and considering it will be an in frame job, what would the basic procedure be after I drain the oil and remove the oil pan?
You are working upside down and it seems like many things could be in your way (and heavy), so in general terms what would your steps be to change out the main and rod bearings in the
truck(2003 C12 engine)?
Can I get all the specs(clearances and torques) I need from CAT or should I buy a specific engine manual from them?
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CATGUY
Posted 12/13/2011 21:21 (#2101482 - in reply to #2100007)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


Iowa

I will attach some specs.

 If a person has time, I would jack up the front of the truck a little, drain oil, pull oil filter, oil pan and oil suction tube off, THEN let it drip overnight.
Next day, roll underneath, on your creeper, and wipe off oil drips. This way you will have a LOT less oil spots on your face and clothes. (We, and our clothes, look really bad, { from oil droplets} when we have to do these bearing replacements on trucks that just drove into the shop.)

Note: oil pump is external, so the oil suction tube just bolts to the side of the block, on a C-12 engine = nice.

No need to use plastigauge, just verify that the part number you remove , is the same as what you reinstall OR is the updated part number for that bearing that you remove = same size. Thus if you remove a standard bearing, then you reinstall a std bearing. Pay attention to your bearing "tangs". too.

Whereever you get parts, have them photocopy/print the parts screen, so you can see the part numbers and locations.

Main bearings, you will need long , narrow flat blade screwdriver and probably a "heel bar" .
I have a 4 piece Snap-On set that I use constantly.
 Once you push the upper bearing half (opposite the tang), you can then use the "heel bar" to lightly pry between block and the back side of that bearing half, that you are trying to remove, Just take little bits, and it comes out. BUT sometimes ,getting the new ones started is a challenge. 
If you can't get one, roll the crank(by hand, turning front bolts on damper probably) and turn it 90 degree and retry, or 180 degrees and retry, to insert it, with oil on the new bearing, of course. NOTE: All oil holes, in bearings go UP into block, NOT down in the main caps!!!!!  Don't laugh, I've seen it done= ruined crank.

I tend to do bearings, one at a time, thus no screw ups, BUT I just lightly tighten them but hand, then after all mains are installed, I do the whole torque/turn procedure for the mains = 14 bolts.
Rods for torque/turn method; you do 2 at a time (1,6);  (2,5);  (3,4) ; you can still just insert the new bearings, one cylinder at a time = thus, no chance of swapping rod caps!!!  

Don't forget some new silicone sealant at joints for front cover and rear cover areas, once oil pan rail is clean and wiped dry. 
 





Attachments
----------------
Attachments C-12 2KS PREFIX MAIN BOLT SPEC.rtf (1KB - 156 downloads)
Attachments C-12 2KS PREFIX ROD SPEC.rtf (1KB - 119 downloads)
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Ray316
Posted 12/14/2011 00:19 (#2101838 - in reply to #2101482)
Subject: Re: A 1998 C12 Cat versus a 2003 C12 Cat


That was very helpful information and clear enough for even a novice like me to understand.
You mentioned that it is "cheap insurance" for an engine with 750,000 miles on it.
Given that I do these main and rod bearings, would you go as far as to say that it is very possible that I may get another 150,000 miles out of this C!2 engine?
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