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Planter Discussion Revisited
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chocgopher
Posted 7/24/2007 18:31 (#178086)
Subject: Planter Discussion Revisited


Iowa
Hello all...

It is time for us to trade planters and I thought that I had better come ask the experts. I have read back through the archived threads and have learned a lot of information there. However, a lot of the in-depth discussion on this topic seems to have taken place last winter, so I was hoping that you all would have some more insights to add based upon your 2007 planting experiences.

We are in a corn/soybean rotation in Southwest Iowa and currently have a Kinze 3600 16/31 row finger pickup that has run 5 seasons and served us very well. We want to remain in 15" row soybeans, are ready to make the switch to a bulk-fill system, and would probably like a 16/32 setup so we can stop running our tractor tires on top of standing corn stalks in our no-till beans. We are pretty much colorblind, so the brand doesn't mean much to us. We are open to either finger meters or a vac system. The fingers have planted very well for us in the past, in fact, our district seed man has commented that we have the best spacing of anyone in his 3 county territory. However, I will admit that all of the annual maintenance we have to do on our finger units makes a low-maintenance vac system look pretty attractive (at least to an outsider looking in).

As I mentioned, we have been very satisfied with our Kinze products; however, we do not like the looks of their current "drill box style" bulk system on their 3650 16/31 row planters. We are especially concerned with the appoximately 8 bushels it takes to prime the mechanical distribution system. We are seed dealers and have to do a lot of plot work, side by side comparisons and cleanout in the field. Eight bushels is too much to clean out frequently. Kinze has told us that they are coming out with a 16/31 row planter that utilizes the "pod" style hoppers currently available on their 24 row planters, but it will NOT be widely available for the 2008 planting season.

We are less familiar with the CIH 1200 planter. Most of what I have heard about the metering system is very positive, but there are some things about the design of the row unit and closing system that do not excite us. However, in previous discussions on this board, among CIH, Kinze, and JD bulk owners, CIH owners seem to have the best things to say about their planters. Perhaps we could be swayed.

I know even less about White planters, but posters seem to have a high opinion of them. I am not aware that they have a 16/32 option. And, if I remember correctly, their transport width is quite wide. But I am willing to be educated.

I'll admit that we were leaning the direction of a JD 1790. The 1/16 bushel per row prime/cleanout looked very attractive to us. Of course, that was until we started reading the threads on here from last winter and you all scared the crap out of us. This is where I would especially like to hear some of your 2007 experiences. Have the issues with Proshaft binding been resolved? What about seed spacing? Are e-Sets the way to go? (I had thought so based on what I had heard, but a neighbor put them in this year and had a terribly erratic drop with them. Never did get the issue resolved). Has anyone had experience with the JD 40 cell Sweet Corn Disk with the Double Eliminator Knockout? I have heard that this is JD answer to the e-Set. What is your opinion? I know that hydraulic requirements have been a concern. We will be pulling with a JD 9120, so hopefully we should have plenty of capacity. Any and all experiences will be appreciated.

I respect the info posted here and thank you all for your input. The advice I got here helped us decide on a sprayer tractor last winter. We ended up with a AGCO 155A Powermaxx CVT with the new style hood and the redesigned Hydramaxx front axle. It is a fantastic machine that we couldn't be happier with. Your input helped us with that decision and I thank you all for it.

Looking forward to your replies

Chocgopher

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dvswia
Posted 7/24/2007 19:02 (#178100 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited


sw corner ia.
Might ask the local kinze guy because the old bulk fill, apparently, is not coming back. In it's place is supposed to be a ccs similar to all the other majors fanciful ideas, but with a new twist on transferring the seed box load across the rest of the bar, something deere doesn't think is necessary.
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AGCOfan
Posted 7/24/2007 19:20 (#178104 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited



S.W. Manitoba
I only know White planters. The 8531 which is 16/31 is 16'8" and has 2-45bu hoppers. It would be kinda wide for my area but if you have decent size shoulders which we do not, then I wouldn't worry about it. Another thing you shouldn't worry about is not knowing anything about White planters. Not much to them really. Very simple. Easy to set. Plane Jane planter with one Helluva metering system. There simple. Done. Heres a picture of a 12/23 thats set up for no-till beans.

Take care,

Nathan

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
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mike in sw mn
Posted 7/24/2007 19:22 (#178105 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: Re: Planter Discussion Revisited


Walnut Grove MN USA
Some of the best spacing I have seen came from a Case IH 1200 planter. The finger is a close second along with the Precision Planting disks I have in my vac John Deere. Not enough Whites around to comment on. My opinion of John Deere is the engineering and workmanship has gone to pot. I have reservations about the Kinze interplant system, don't like the wheels running over 25% of planted rows. I don't know how Case IH sets up their 15 inch rows but if I was in the market for a new planter it would be my first choice. Others to look at are the Monosem and the Great Plains.
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Ron..NE ILL..10/48
Posted 7/24/2007 19:27 (#178106 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited...JD 1790 horror stories



Chebanse, IL

I'm sorry to say, we don't have any JD 1790 horror stories, though we have a 1790.

It's worked fine for us for 2 yrs now. Planted several K acres of corn & beans. No stories about pro-shaft either....just nothing to report. Perhaps we're doing something wrong. Ours work fine.

We do have e-sets. They seem to give us the precision we look for at "higher" planting speeds. I don't say they're a must, I just don't know otherwise. Also ours is 16/32 config.

In 2006 we had a couple of minor mechanical problems taken care of by JD. In 2007 we had no issues...none.

I won't say the other planters you mentioned are as good, maybe they're better...don't know. I can say we're happy w/1790. That is, assuming you're happy w/1 planter for both corn & beans. It always takes a little longer to switch crops than you might estimate. Our only wish at this point is to somehow hope to connect the seed monitor to the AL Insight. Then we'll be happier. The insecticide for the RW Bt refuge acres is still a problem for us. What we have works....we just wish.....well, never mind. It's too controversial.

Good luck in whatever you choose. Lots of good competition.



Edited by Ron..NE ILL..10/48 7/24/2007 19:29
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nefarmer
Posted 7/24/2007 20:47 (#178132 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: Re: Planter Discussion Revisited


NC Nebraska
This is my first year with a 1790 12/23 vac-absolutely loved it. I have no complaints with the planter. I put in a lot of plots as well and worked great. What I did was turned the CCS fan off and filled the mini hoppers-you can go darn near a half mile with them full with most hybrids. It is tight around the center since the split rows don't lift high like the wings so watch your head.

Cleaning out is WAY easier than the conventional planters. Empty the tanks, crank up the CCS fan, pull off the vac plates, and watch the seed run out of the hoppers. We plant a lot of popcorn and clean out almost daily, I was constantly cleaning out faster than the other planter (who had 2 guys helping him). No pulling off vac hoses, opening lids, or re-aligning chain drives.

As far as the pro-shafts-no one around this area has ever noticed a problem with them. I like them, in fact I like that the planter only has 6 chains total with self tensioners. Oil them once in a while but basically maintenance free.

My planter was a season old 05 model with 3300 acres on it, this year I put on another 4200 acres on it. The seed blades will need to be replaced this winter and I'll re-bearing the whole rig but I never had any bearing failure. The only thing that broke was one closing wheel down pressure spring throughout the whole season. A 9120 should have plenty of hydraulics, I pull mine with a 8120 with the big pump.

If you do Deere, order with Seedstar. By far the best money we've spent in a while. I still like the looks of the CIH 1200 as well. But we plant a bunch of dry beans as well and the CIH splits a seed hose between 2 rows versus the deere having a separate hose for each row (whole nother story). Hope this helps.

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boog
Posted 7/24/2007 21:05 (#178141 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: Re: Planter Discussion Revisited



We ran a Kinzie for 5 years, purchased a 1790 in '04 & ran it 3 years & went back to a Kinzie this spring. Our biggest complaint with the 1790 was seed spacing, we didn't have the e-sets . My son, who runs the planter, worked last summer for a soil consultaning firm & was over a lot of ground pplanted with 1790s with e-sets, 1790s without e-sets, & Kinzie finger planters. He said from what he saw there was a big difference in spacing with the 1790s with the e-sets than without. Ones with he felt were fairly close to the Kinzie's with the finger units.

Besides seed spacing the other thing I didn't care for one the 1790 was that it only had one seed transmission. We plant a lot of our acres with two varities split between the boxes and don't always want to plant the same population but had no choice with the 1790.

I feel that a lot of our problems with the 1790 was more dealer service related than anything. Seems like when ever we had a problem they would say that we were the only ones with that complaint and the tech's answer to our seed spacing was to blame the seed companies for poor seed sizing. Had several friends that purchased 1790s from a different dealer and when they had problems the dealer would have a factory rep come along with the tech.



Neighbor bought a 1790 last year & after a lot of complaing to JD they put on a set of experimental meters this year. Early on there were several JD vehicles around his planter quite often & heard he was having some problems but have since heard they got most of the problems worked out. I haven't heard anything as to when / if these prototype meters will be available. May be something worth checking into.

When we bought our 1790 we looked at the Kinzie bulk fill but like you wasn't impressed with it. Also looked at a CIH 1200 but wanted a 16/32 which are not available & were concerned with hp & hyd requirements. I have heard nothing but good about the seed spacings on the 1200. We purchased our Kinzie from a CIH dealer whom also has a Kinzie dealership. According to their planter tech, they probably sell 10 Kinzies to every 1 1200.

No doubt Deere has made many improvements on the 1790 since we bought ours. Friends bought a 1790 around the time we bought ours and the two planters were delivered less than a month apart but there were some difference already in that short amount of time. JD is too big of a company to just sit back & not continue to improve their products.



Edited by boog 7/24/2007 21:14
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Jim
Posted 7/24/2007 21:10 (#178147 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited -ability to mount attachments


Driftless SW Wisconsin

The 1790 does offer the ability to mount a variety of different planter attachments, fertilizer coulters, row cleaners (screw adjust or floating), coulter combos (coulter leading or behind the Trashwheels), and a variety of closing wheels.

If you set up the planter with the JD 5410 (I think that is the number for long links on 8 rows only behind the lift tires) order code kit you can even equip the 1790's with coulter combos that work on 15" rows of beans, corn or any other plantable crop.

The 1790 also offers  the ability to mount Curvetines or any of a variety of other closing wheel systems on the back if you wish. (double Curvetines on the rows planting into lift tire tracks pretty much solve closing and emergence problems in some soils in those rows).

It is amazing how many phone calls I have had even today from producers and dealers asking if they can mount various attachments on various model planters. It is also amazing how little concern some manufacturers have for how you want to equip your planter. They think they will tell YOU what you need on your planter. Deere and Kinze provide the ability for you to equip your planter as you wish, for the most part.

The JD1790 (and NT series for non splitters) as well as the Kinze 3600/3650 offer a number of attachment options on splitter planters. The new Case 24 row and some others don't seem to care about attachments. They will tell you what you need. jmho.

Jim at Dawn 

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John EIA
Posted 7/24/2007 22:35 (#178190 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited


We are about to purchase a new planter as well, ours will be a Great Plains. Some of the engineering features look great, it will use black boxes, and it comes from a dealer that treats us well. We currently have a Kinze and that dealer is great also.

Our only delema is do we go 30" rows or twin rows. It is also available in split 30's or 20 " rows. Look at the adjustments on the depth wheels, look at the simplicity of folding and unfolding. Especially though, we are inthused with the ability to set a black box on the planter and go. No handling bags etc. In a couple of years we may think differently, but for now this is what we see.

John EIA

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gerstner4
Posted 7/24/2007 22:40 (#178195 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: Re: Planter Discussion Revisited


ne ks
Ran our bulk fill last year and loved it. Wouldn't want to be without it. We did put 16 boxes on to plant corn, had rr and conventional, figured it would be to big of a pain to switch back and forth. After using it I don't think it would be to big of a deal . If your close on the amount of seed you need in a field and don't have much left over, you can clean out the mini hopper with a shop vac real quick. Even if you just put seed in the mini hoppers to plant your test plots I don't think it would be to hard, especially with a shop vac nearby. Don't know much about the other colors bulk fill but it's going to take a certain amount of seed to prime them all.
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winding brook
Posted 7/25/2007 09:46 (#178364 - in reply to #178106)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited...JD 1790 horror stories


Ron,

Just curious what you do about your insecticide on refuge corn? I know from where you are located, I am a little south and east of you, if you don't have insecticide on 1st year corn, you are in for a surprise at harvest. Most of the 1790's around me are running the Smart Box systems and seem to be well pleased to say the least. Just wondering.

WB
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plowboy
Posted 7/25/2007 17:54 (#178488 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: Re: Planter Discussion Revisited



Brazilton KS
We have a 1790 16-31 and a CIH 900 16 row 30 inch, and have had smaller rigid frame 7200 and 7000 in the past. The best seed spacing we have had was with the 7200. We can't really figure out why the 1790 isn't doing as well, but it isn't. Somewhat irregular seed spacing is inherent in the cyclo, so we're not really complaining about it, but expected the 1790 to be far better.

We like the central fill. We may do without it on the next planter depending on costs. With a nice seed tender which will hit all the boxes from one spot, I don't think individual boxes would be as bad as we remember.

We don't really like the combination 30"/15" concept as well as we though we would. This might be largely influenced by using it in two extremely wet years planting far more corn then beans. It works good for beans but there's a lot of stuff in the way when planting corn, and you are carrying a whole lot of extra weight. When you hit an unexpected wet spot you get stuck, even pulling it with a track.

The CIH row unit is just a far better design, hands down. The Deere is a little more stoutly built though.

We've never had finger pickup meters, but the number of parts and the amount of maintenance folks seem to say they require do not excite us. They sure do a good job in the field, though, based on the neighbor's fields. It seems like the nice picket fence stands are always in fields planted by Kinze planters.

The 1200 is pretty close to the top of the contender list to be our next planter. Kinze and Great Plains have a chance and I would not completely rule out another Deere. Regardless it will most likely be a straight 30" either 16 or 24 row planter. We'll most likely go back to a separate soybean rig.
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Ron..NE ILL..10/48
Posted 7/25/2007 20:33 (#178531 - in reply to #178364)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited...JD 1790 horror stories



Chebanse, IL

Winding Brook

I'd estimate we've been insecticide on 1st yr corn about 20 yrs now. I'd have to check back on records to make sure. Definitely 15+ yrs. We're well familiar what happens when you have NO insecticide. We're also familiar w/a couple of yrs of SmartBox w/insecticide that didn't work. Of course, if you have a dry-dry or wet-wet spring, the granular can still disappear before RW egg-hatch. Luckily the last 2 yrs, the granulars have held up. We've used Force, Lorsban, Aztec, Counter, & Fortress granulars thru the years. Of course, like most in the RW areas, we all realize that the RW Bt products hold better & yield more....but in the interest of humanity & keeping our farms, we go with the mandatory minimum 20% refuge per field regulations.

The red box you see in the above post & included in this post is a Gandy Orbit-Air. Ours is set up for 16r of application. The product is blown thru 1" tubes to the row units. You calibrate initially much as you do for granular products (including SB attachments) by catching a timed amount of material & weighing it. We use blank material for the calibration. You can turn the Orbit Air on-off at will & adjust the rate if necessary. It's controlled by a familiar to most Raven 440 type control panel.

As I mentioned, we used the SB system for a few yrs & find the Gandy easier. Also, if you price the material, you'll note there is quite a difference in "per acre" cost between bags & SB containers. Of course, there is a way to mount conventional boxes on top of SB bases & use SB dispensing also. I don't know if that's a secret or not. But, anyway, we do presently find the Gandy easier to use than the SB system. We plant all our refuge in blocks, so we use all rows insecticide, or none at all.

Here's the Gandy we mounted (our brackets) on 1790. You'll also note in 2nd photo that we have SB bases mounted on the tank lid so that we can also use SB material should we choose to do so. There is a wind curtain that we removed for the 2nd photo:

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Jim
Posted 7/25/2007 21:23 (#178542 - in reply to #178488)
Subject: Re: Planter Discussion Revisited


Driftless SW Wisconsin

Mark,

I think the basic 1770NT 16R30 or the Kinze 3600 16R30 are hard to beat as basic meat and potatoes corn planters.

Personally I think it helps to look at the overall farm economics: which is your income crop, corn or beans?

If beans are that significant to you, pick up/make a used splitter planter somewhere and make that a dedicated bean planter.

Otherwise focus on your corn and do a good job on that. A 16R30 corn planter with all the units on the ground is a lot more mobile in early wet ground conditions than any brand splitter. jmho.

Jim at Dawn 

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iahawks
Posted 7/26/2007 00:15 (#178630 - in reply to #178542)
Subject: Re: Planter Discussion Revisited


I would take a look at a Great Plains planter. We've used a yield pro twin row for 4 years now. They use precision meters so the spacing is good, the bulk fill won't affect the down pressure of the bar, all in all I think it is a good planter.
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Tazzerblue
Posted 7/26/2007 09:26 (#178697 - in reply to #178086)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited


SW MN
I'm interested in farmer feedback on your RT155A I could use a little more tractor than my TS 135A New Holland. How well does it handle the planter? and other uses? Thanks
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Wm.
Posted 7/26/2007 10:47 (#178733 - in reply to #178697)
Subject: RE: Your for sale ad


There is no contact info listed.
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Millhouse
Posted 7/26/2007 11:20 (#178746 - in reply to #178147)
Subject: RE: Planter Discussion Revisited -ability to mount attachments


South-central Nebraska
I'm going to start by saying I espect the information you give on this forum. But, I am going to disagree on your opinion of Deere and Kinze being a great meat and potatos planter with the most attachment options, while CaseIH tells you what to do.

CaseIH seems to not need all the options Deere andKinze need. We have always had a Deere planter but you need residue openers, closing wheels, Precision disks and tubes, RID gauge wheels etc etc. There isn't much left of the origianl JD or Kinze planter after you change or add all of the "needed" attachments. Yes, The CaseIh does have attachments too, but not to the same extreme. In our neck of the woods there is a steady switch to the CaseIH planter from Deere and Kinze and the guys have been tickled pink with their performance.
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