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crossing black angus cattle
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wtrachs
Posted 1/6/2011 06:46 (#1530015)
Subject: crossing black angus cattle


I have 1/2 to full stock angus cows. Currently use angus bulls. My calves top
my local auction consistently. It seems to be harder to find unrelated bloodlines
to my retained heifers and cows if you look back in the pedigrees 2 or 3 generations.
Would I retain the black color if I used a red angus bull and also gain some hybrid
vigor? Or should I look at balancers or simmangus? Still run into the same problem
with them of similiar bloodlines. I want to keep predominantly angus in my herd and
keep the black color.
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thekcirp
Posted 1/6/2011 08:00 (#1530113 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


nemo
Think you would have a better chance keeping the black hide using a hereford bull than a red angus. I think either one would give you some outstanding heifers
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NEIndiana
Posted 1/6/2011 17:33 (#1531059 - in reply to #1530113)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


thekcirp - 1/6/2011 08:00

Think you would have a better chance keeping the black hide using a hereford bull than a red angus. I think either one would give you some outstanding heifers


I 2nd the motion for Black Baldies. I bought a new bull last summer from a purebred Angus breeder, and we walked out in the pasture to look at my cows. When he saw my black baldy heifer calves, he said I should put them together as a group and sell them, said they were hot as firecrackers!
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ckansas
Posted 1/6/2011 08:38 (#1530189 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: RE: crossing black angus cattle


Hoisington, KS
We have had really good luck with Balancer bulls (1/2 Gelbvieh x 1/2 angus or red angus) or even a purebred black Gelbvieh bull to really add to your hybrid vigor. You'll get more pounds at weaning and the daughters make really good cows. Gelbvieh used to have a bad name with heavy birth weights, but they've really changed that and we usually use a balancer bull on heifers.
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MPW64
Posted 1/6/2011 10:52 (#1530426 - in reply to #1530189)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


NW MINN
I'd second the Black Gelbvieh. Just make sure it is a low BW bull if using on heifers.
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NoTill1825
Posted 1/6/2011 22:57 (#1531951 - in reply to #1530426)
Subject: So what are you guys


NC Indiana
coming back on the heifers from these crosses then? My new cows (Blk AngusX from the herd I bought last fall) have all been sired by bulls from the farm where my current bull is from with the exception of a sim/maine bull thrown in there a few yrs back. The balance of my other cows are black as well, though I know a few of them are of SD origin (Blk Angus). I was leaning towards a Hereford (if I can find one), but I'm not sure where to go from there.

Thanks!
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Galaxie64
Posted 1/6/2011 19:55 (#1531347 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


SCWY
Never understood the color thing about blacks, your best gains will be to go with a Hereford bull. There is a great market for baldy heifers or you can keep them and turn in a Charolais after their first calf for the best vigor.

I've never seen red angus and black angus cross to improve anything.
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MPW64
Posted 1/6/2011 20:22 (#1531433 - in reply to #1531347)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


NW MINN
You're not the only one that can't understand the black hide craziness. The rail doesn't pay for hide color. I will give the American Angus Ass'n credit for one of the best marketing programs ever dreamt up. I will also give Angus a nod for easy calving especially on heifers. And as long as there seems to be a premium for black calves I will be using black bulls.
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wayler
Posted 1/6/2011 20:44 (#1531493 - in reply to #1531433)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


Wy
Would using a horned hereford bull on black angus cows produce calves with horns or not? Seems finding a polled hereford bull is about impossible.
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Ben
Posted 1/6/2011 21:22 (#1531591 - in reply to #1531493)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


North Mo.
not if true Angus Lots of luck. what's this about no polled Hereford bulls. Ben
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Roy@ranch
Posted 1/6/2011 21:28 (#1531617 - in reply to #1531591)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


North Cental Mo.
Yeah, lots of polled to be found, the horned are more scarce around here. And the horned Herefords are better cattle.

Roy
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feelnrite
Posted 1/6/2011 22:37 (#1531880 - in reply to #1531617)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


northwest tennessee
The herefords that are any good around here will be horned. Not very many good polled herefords to be found.
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NEIndiana
Posted 1/6/2011 23:15 (#1532014 - in reply to #1531617)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


Roy@ranch - 1/6/2011 21:28

Yeah, lots of polled to be found, the horned are more scarce around here. And the horned Herefords are better cattle.

Roy


Roy, once a while back, you posted that you thought a Horned Hereford bull on an Angus cow would make an ideal cross, and I asked why horned as opposed to polled. You replied that when they bred the horns off the Herefords, they bred the @$$ off as well. I told my Grandpa that, he raised Herefords for over 50 years and sold breeding stock. By the time I was around, everything was polled and he was starting to cross some Char on them, but there are lots of pictures from his younger days of their horned Herefords. He got a big kick out of your comment. Still mentions it from time to time!
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wayneNWAR
Posted 1/6/2011 23:28 (#1532052 - in reply to #1532014)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


north west arkansas
I have allways been told that also, but I have seem some pretty good polled cattle though.
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Jim
Posted 1/7/2011 00:20 (#1532164 - in reply to #1532052)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


Driftless SW Wisconsin

OK, I'll bite on this one.

Here are the two polled Hereford bulls I will be using this coming summer. Huth U070 on the right and my homegrown T021 bull calf on the left. They have some butt and are smooth polled.

As far as butt goes, I was walking among my cows and heifers, due to start calving in mid-March, today. If you want to see some butt on a polled Hereford here it is.  The one on the right of the three is obviously not up to specs however we are getting there.  

I feel if you go to the right breeder/source you can find some Herefords which have overcome many of the problems the breed (as most other breeds) has had in the past but kept most of the traditional Hereford strong points. Some breeders are still chasing the show ring/club calf market. But there are others, like Jerry Huth in Wisconsin, who are breeding polled Herefords for grass, fertility, docility and commercial qualities. Some polled Herefords, as in other breeds, have nuts & butt. And you can usually work with and around them.  These would work well on Angus cows.

Jim at Dawn

And yes, that is my summer fly rub still up in the ravine in the background. I'm not late taking it down, just real early for the summer fly season.



Edited by Jim 1/7/2011 07:44




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play in the dirt
Posted 1/7/2011 00:35 (#1532193 - in reply to #1532164)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle



south central IOWA
Looks like wasted hay and Herefords.

Gota laugh about Bill being right.

Ok, I'm done Sir.

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John SD
Posted 1/7/2011 03:07 (#1532248 - in reply to #1532164)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle



Jim, don't let the comments from the peanut gallery get you down. ;-)

I like your polled bulls, especially the one with more pigment around his eyes. I try to select for eye pigment and haven't had any pink eye or cancer eye for a long time. Rigid culling and selection for eye pigment goes a long way IMO.

My bull battery now includes one polled bull. I still favor the genetics of horned bulls. Like mentioned above, I believe there is a lot more selection of quality blood lines to choose from, but I hate having to deal with the horns.

If my calves are going to have horns, I hope they show up so they can be dealt with at branding time. Sometimes they don't if the calves have some polled or Angus blood in them. I don't like having to deal with horns later on in the fall when the calves are bigger to work with.

This spring I expect some nice baldy calves from my heifers, out of the first black Angus bull I've had in several years. Neighbor's red Angus got in and "helped out" last spring. Got 3 nice uniform all red steer calves out of him. Red must be quite dominant. One cow was black, one a baldy, and one kind of a smoky gray char.

I've been pleased with bulls I have purchased from these breeders. These links are outdated but the first one should be updated with this year's bull prospects soon.

Horned Herefords http://www.herefordamerica.com/cranston.html

Dehorned and Polled http://www.herefordamerica.com/hawks.html

Edited by John SD 1/7/2011 03:27
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play in the dirt
Posted 1/7/2011 14:16 (#1533101 - in reply to #1532248)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle



south central IOWA
John SD - 1/7/2011 02:07

Jim, don't let the comments from the peanut gallery get you down. ;-)


Thanks for the kind words John. I will proudly sit up front and lead the peanut gallery. Someone needs to keep people in check with all this Hereford mantra.

If you only knew.
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billonthefarm
Posted 1/7/2011 07:27 (#1532324 - in reply to #1532014)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle



Farmington IL
That is funny because about 2 months ago I went and dropped in to see a guy who is a good cattleman. He knows the people and their cattle. I told him I was planning buy a couple of herford bulls to put in with some of our purebred angus cows. I wanted his input on results and where to look for a bull. Those F1 cross baldie calves should hit the ground running and finish well. He looked at me and said horned herfords are fine but those polled herfords are just a bunch of mongrels!!!! I laughed. He said when the took the horns off they ruined them. I will never forget that.
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Roy@ranch
Posted 1/8/2011 19:52 (#1535617 - in reply to #1532014)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


North Cental Mo.
I can't take full credit for it, I had a gentleman tell me that several years ago. Made sense then and I think it still holds merit. I had a couple horned herfies not all that long ago, had some real good cattle from them. On my herd I did get a red from a bwf mama on occasion.

Roy
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Galaxie64
Posted 1/6/2011 21:22 (#1531596 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


SCWY
You will get some but not a lot, we see 5%-10% most years.

I know where there are some polled Herf's that will be for sale shortly in N. WY.
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wayler
Posted 1/6/2011 21:52 (#1531700 - in reply to #1531596)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


Wy
Who has the ones that will be for sale?
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Galaxie64
Posted 1/6/2011 23:43 (#1532085 - in reply to #1531700)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


SCWY
wayler - 1/6/2011 19:52

Who has the ones that will be for sale?


Wards out of Sheridan should have some bulls for sale in a few months. We've bought from them for the past few years now. Just picked a few older bulls up last month. Here is a link to their catalog from the sale they had back in Sept.

http://www.cattleinmotion.com/cat/njw/100929

Their contact info and herd bulls are all listed in the catalog.
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play in the dirt
Posted 1/7/2011 00:41 (#1532197 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: RE: crossing black angus cattle



south central IOWA
I'll vote for Simmental or a simangus. Just need one that has been tested homozygous black and not heterozygous if you don't want a few red calves mixed in.
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dbmaguet
Posted 1/7/2011 08:39 (#1532448 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: RE: crossing black angus cattle



Ste. Rose, MB

I think going to Simmentals will give you more gain & pounds at the end of the day. No one ever uses Herefords on their blacks out here. Everyone hits them up with Simmies. Talked to guys that used to be straight Angus for decades, started crossing Simmental bulls & have increased their WW by 150+ lbs. That's profit right there.

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deereman05
Posted 1/7/2011 09:37 (#1532598 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


EC NE
I love what the Herefords have done for our operation. I can't decide though what the next bull I am going to buy is going to be though. The Herefords have done great things for our calves but the bulls are the biggest bunch of pussy's I have ever seen. I like the fact that I can actually work with the Herefords compared to the black bulls we have. My vote would be a Hereford with a Simmental cross or a Maine as a second choice.
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dlerwick
Posted 1/7/2011 10:50 (#1532770 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


Western Nebraska
The only way you will retain black color on your cattle is if you have an entirely homozygous black herd. Then the first cross will still be all black, but the second generation will start showing up red. Furthermore, you will get no heterosis out of a black angus/red angus cross. You need an entirely different breed to get any heterosis, and to get the largest amount of heterosis you need to look at a continental breed to go on the english cattle. That all depends of course on what set of parameters you are targeting. The english/continental cross will probably give you the biggest kick in growth, but not necessarily the best maternal animal. To get that, as others have already stated, it is hard to beat a black or red baldy for maternal animals. It all depends on what your goals are.
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Flatwater
Posted 1/7/2011 11:12 (#1532809 - in reply to #1532770)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


Central Nebraska
Not sure if I should start a new topic or just continue with this one, but this one got me thinking. I have a fair number of straight red angus cows/heifers. If I were to breed to black baldie bull, what are the odds that I get Black Baldie calves? Or would they all come out either straight red or red baldie.

I guess second part to that would be, would I be better off going with a Hereford bull and make them all red baldie for uniformity?

Never quite got all the what crossed with what will give you what when I was in school. So any information or places to read up would be greatly appreciated.
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Galaxie64
Posted 1/7/2011 14:47 (#1533150 - in reply to #1532809)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


SCWY
Flatwater - 1/7/2011 09:12

Not sure if I should start a new topic or just continue with this one, but this one got me thinking. I have a fair number of straight red angus cows/heifers. If I were to breed to black baldie bull, what are the odds that I get Black Baldie calves? Or would they all come out either straight red or red baldie.

I guess second part to that would be, would I be better off going with a Hereford bull and make them all red baldie for uniformity?

Never quite got all the what crossed with what will give you what when I was in school. So any information or places to read up would be greatly appreciated.


You'd be far better of crossing with a pure bred Herf., if you used a super baldy that bull has already gained the most from the cross breeding and you'd be getting only half, or less, of the potential. I'd suggest a google search on Hybrid vigor and heterosis for more info. I think the way the market is going there are a few positions you can take, you can be a pure bred breeder supplying the commercial side, you can be the commercial guy that is either making the baldies or buying the baldies for cows and running a Charolais bull on them to get the absolute best hybrid vigor. You can figure 700lb+ waning weights with those Charolais cross calves and then take off 50-100lbs for each one of those steps backwards, baldies back to pure bred etc etc.

We've chosen to produce the baldy females, we did the Charolais cross thing for many years with great success but the drought reduced our numbers and when you aren't making any heifers you can keep expenses got too high.
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t-boss
Posted 1/7/2011 14:49 (#1533153 - in reply to #1532809)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle



sc ia
Like dlerwick said, in a different way, if the black baldie bull is homozygous black all the calves will be black. If the black baldie bull is heterozygous black half the calves will be black. This is assuming there is no dilution gene in your cows and there shouldn't be in straight Red Angus. If there is a dilution gene some of the calves will be gray.
If a black baldie bull has a red parent he won't be homozygous black.
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dlerwick
Posted 1/7/2011 23:19 (#1534054 - in reply to #1532809)
Subject: Re: crossing black angus cattle


Western Nebraska

The short answer is, I don't really know.  For the most part when you are talking about red/black hair color it is a case of simple dominance on a genetic level.  I am aware of the variation in color and combination between the two, but for the sake of discussion we will say that it is simple dominance.  Since black is the dominant gene, if an animal has one copy of the black gene it will express the black hair color.  It takes two copies of the red gene in order to express the red hair coat.  What I don't really know is how the white color figures in.  I don't know if you will be seeing some solids or not.  However, the most likely answer would be that you should have about 75% of the herd expressing some form of red baldy.  Unless you managed to get a hold of a black hereford bull and used him to produce the black baldy.  Then you would be much more likely to have every calf express black color.

If you are interested in maximizing heterosis though, this is not the way to do it.  As has been stated, the maximum amount of heterosis will be in the F1 animal.  So if you took a black or red baldy, stipulating that this animal was bred using angus and hereford as your parents, and then crossed it back on angus cattle you went from a 50-50 split of breed representation to a 75-25 favoring the angus breed.  Probably wouldn't be anything wrong with the animal, but that is one of those crosses that I am not sure makes a lot of sense from the genetic standpoint, or the production standpoint. 

As has been alluded to here, when you are planning your crossbreeding, you need to figure out what you are trying to achieve before you start.  If you hear people talking about crossbreeding and decide that you want to get in the game as well and just go pick up a different breed of bull to put on your cows, you will get heterosis, but now what do you do with it?  If you used Hereford on angus you have got a pretty good maternal cow, but not necessarily the most growth.  If you go get a Charolais bull and put on your cows, now you have got lots of growth, but you probably don't really want to keep the heifers.  So you need to be planning several years out as to how it will affect your herd.  If you always purchase your replacements, then you are setup perfectly for a terminal cross.  Go buy some charolais bulls and you will always have good weaning weights.  If you want to raise your own replacements, then you need to recognize that you are going to have to shift focus a little.  You will probably have to give up a certain degree of growth in trying to get the best female for your envirnoment. 

We raise all of our own replacements so we look first at frame and mature weight and then at maternal traits, milk, CE and stayability before we start looking at carcass traits.  I know that I am not ever going to have the heaviest weaning calves, but I am fine with that.  I want to produce as balanced of a multipurpose animal as I can.  We have tried several crosses and have yet to settle on one that we like as well as straight red angus.  The 3/4 RA 1/4 Saler was a tremendous maternal animal, but you couldn't build fences high enough that they wouldn't try to jump them, and if they couldn't jump them they would go through them.  As soon as we put south devon into our herd we lost our hind quarter and our growth.  Those things are hardly anything more than a big eared, solid colored gurnsey that doesn't milk.  We tried gelbvieh and didn't like the temperment or the body style.  Right now we are trying non-spotter, non-diluter red simmental.  We are cautiously optomistic about that cross.  It is looking like we can pick up some growth without losing the maternal animal.  We are keeping a real sharp eye on disposition though as I think that might be a weak point.  What we are trying to do is get an animal that looks and acts as much like an RA as we can but has more growth than we can get with straight bred animals.  Since we are commercial we still make our money by selling pounds.



Edited by dlerwick 1/7/2011 23:23
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Markwright
Posted 1/7/2011 23:56 (#1534130 - in reply to #1532809)
Subject: Re: Flatwater, if you use what I call a


New Mexico
"solidified genetic" BWF bull, over 90% of the calves will be BWF calves ( generally the afore 90 is closer to 95% of em BWF ).

Solidified explained:
Takes an original BWF bull who is out of a BWF dam.
Then, bring him back on some BWF cows.
Resultant bull calves have 4 generations of BWF in em: 3 are from the sire side and 1 or 2 ( if out of bronkle cow ) from the maternal side.
Resultants are thus a linebred BWF ( thus they breed True to color no matter what color cows you breed those bulls to ).

Keep in mind coming back on char cross cows, the Charolais color stamp IS dominent over any and all other colors.
So calves out of those will be an off white to greyish calf WITH the white or bald / bronkle face ( and black noses ).

Variation on the afore 5 to 10% is Red Baldy calves, because the red gene is recessive in a line bred baldie just like it's recessive in Black Angus.

btw, on selecting those bwf prospect bulls, ALWAYS stay with the dark noses, always stay with the dark ( ie pigment around the eyes ).
Also, a black spot or so on the face is a GOOD thing.

If you keep the pink noses and non pigment eyes...that keeps the red gene more towards dominent rather than recessive.


Side note on Herefords: If you breed pigment on pigment on pigment for a couple 3 generations, the Herfys "color in"...generally easier to make em strait Red than strait Black.

The folks in the Black Hereford breed have produced several strait Black Herefords ( no whiteface whatsoever ).

Edited by Markwright 1/7/2011 23:58
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mlazyj
Posted 1/8/2011 09:54 (#1534519 - in reply to #1530015)
Subject: RE: crossing black angus cattle


It depends on what you want or will accept on the back end . Are you retaining your heifers ? can you stand to see baldy cows ?

I would use a red angus bull , your not going to get anywere .

I would go balancer or 1/2 black simm bulls . Your seeing a lot of that up here . Folks just figureing out they cann't just buy from the same bull outfitt every year and end up with different bloodlines .

Other oppyion is your going to have to travel and get something that related to anything you got .
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