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Insulating a pole shed
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donny
Posted 1/1/2011 14:46 (#1519588)
Subject: Insulating a pole shed


Shop Insulation
I have been planning on insulating a pole shed, but cant decide whats the best way to do it.

-I dont like the idea of a typical shelf/bat isulation, it is cheap but will likely settle and be drafty.

-Spray on insulation seems to be the ticket but it is costly. For some reason I dont like the idea of spray on foam on the iterior side of my outer walls. If a sheet needs to be replaced I will have to deal with getting it reinsulated. The nice part about spraying the walls is that I could take my time hanging the interior steel when I have time to do it.

- Has anyone ever lined the walls with 2'' sheets of pink foam board insulation nailed to the inside of the boards that the exterior steel is screwed to. This would give you 2'' of foam insulation for about .75/sq ft. Then spray on an inch of spray foam for a completely tight seal. This plan gives you the benifit of sprayfoam without it being stuck on your steel and the the 2'' foam board is about 1/2 price per inch think.
If more isulation was wanted could 4'' of fiberglass be put inbetween the nailers when installing the interior steel or will moisture/mold become an issue with the moisture barriar (closed cell foam) not completley on the warm side? Sorry for the long post but I have been thinking about this alot.

Edited by donny 1/1/2011 14:47
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Tommy
Posted 1/1/2011 14:52 (#1519598 - in reply to #1519588)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


Iowa
You can also buy bat insulation in wide rolls that fit tight between the poles. Hang it from just above the ceiling line, roll it down and you are done. Way tighter than makeshift studs and typical 16 or 24 inch wide batt insulation.
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otteb
Posted 1/1/2011 15:08 (#1519626 - in reply to #1519598)
Subject: Re: Insulating a pole shed


SC Kansas
depends a little on where you are located too. In my part of the world "cold" spells come and go usually pretty quickly. I've found that investing in a big heater or woodstove in our area is best. We have ample supply of osage orange wood that really kicks out the BTU's. I'll start the stove in the morning or refuel it.....go inside for breakfast and when I'm done the shop is usually ready to go. The shop has rolls in the walls and two sheets of reflective heat foam in the ceiling. I do wish I had poured radiant heating in the floor. My feet tend to get cold anyway.
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donny
Posted 1/1/2011 15:08 (#1519627 - in reply to #1519598)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


True, I think this is how Morton insulates thier insulated buildings

But will it be drafty near the poles, will it break and fall in 10 or 20 years? I dont know what those wide rolls run for money. And I still need nailers for the interior sheeting

If the price of these large rolls is right. Could they be hung and dropped as you said. Frame up 2x4 for for interrior sheeting nailers and spray on 1 or 1/2 inch of 2 lb closed cell sprayfoam. The foam would be the moisture barriar on the warm side in winter and seal the building. The sprayfoam would also adhere to the 2x4 nailers and the insulation rolls to keep the insulation from falling over time.
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N E I F
Posted 1/1/2011 15:15 (#1519636 - in reply to #1519627)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed PIC


Northeast Iowa

this is what we did to our shop last winter    we put a plastic vapor barrier nailed on the poles and then filled the walls with non settling insulation then we covered it with steel so then you could see if there was any air pockets  it really worked great 

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FFJR
Posted 1/1/2011 15:47 (#1519682 - in reply to #1519627)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed



nc IA
Yes, I can confirm that Morton has rolls that are the width needed for a 7.5' OC column spacing, they are cut to length, then the top is sandwitched between a 2x4 and a piece of steel (or a bit shorter 2x4) then hosisted up in between the columns and nailed on. It does "fluff" out some so there ends up being some friction between the outside and inside nailers to help hold in place eventually.

I really like the idea though of that final step of spray on foam inbetween the interior nailers - would really add to a R19 standard wall thickness and secure the fiberglass.

Menards can order wider rolls as well at the counter if you check.

A key area is to make a insulation "chute" or fresh air chute leading to the eaves so that wall to ceiling transition can be insulated as much as possible but not block airflow to the eaves. On narrow truss heel setups this is one of the biggest heat loss areas.
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donny
Posted 1/1/2011 15:52 (#1519689 - in reply to #1519636)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed PIC


NEIF, what did you use for a non settling blown insulation?

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Delmarva Ag
Posted 1/1/2011 15:53 (#1519693 - in reply to #1519588)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed



Seaford, Delaware
Here is what Morton does.

Alan



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N E I F
Posted 1/1/2011 15:53 (#1519694 - in reply to #1519689)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed PIC


Northeast Iowa

im try to remeber and attach a pic

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N E I F
Posted 1/1/2011 15:57 (#1519697 - in reply to #1519693)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed PIC


Northeast Iowa

pic  this is the insulation we used  the bottom 4 ft was concrete so we had to use 2 in pink foam like you can see



Edited by N E I F 1/1/2011 16:06




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donny
Posted 1/1/2011 16:01 (#1519706 - in reply to #1519682)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


"A key area is to make a insulation "chute" or fresh air chute leading to the eaves so that wall to ceiling transition can be insulated as much as possible but not block airflow to the eaves. On narrow truss heel setups this is one of the biggest heat loss areas."

The "Chute" you are refering to. Are you refering to something like the black plastic chutes you nail to the underside of a ceiling before blowing insulation in an atic. The chute keeps air moving from the eave to the non insulated atic area. Thus allowing you to cover the top of the wall in the atic.

The spray foam between the interrior nailers, do you think it would adhere nicely to fiberglass insulation? Does anyone know what those large rolls of insulation run for price per foot if they are 7 and 1/2 ft wide.
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N E I F
Posted 1/1/2011 16:02 (#1519713 - in reply to #1519588)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed PICS


Northeast Iowa

more pic



Edited by N E I F 1/1/2011 16:06




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donny
Posted 1/1/2011 16:10 (#1519723 - in reply to #1519693)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


The plastic serves as the vapor barriar but it wont do much anything to keep the fiberglass stuck in place. If I did this I think I would spray an adhesive on the plastic before sticking it to the fiberglass.

Is rodent burrowing inside the walls a major problem with this Morton insulation job, nothing to stop a critter? Or over time will the insulaltion fall?
woops this was to be a reply to D.A.

Edited by donny 1/1/2011 16:15
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donny
Posted 1/1/2011 16:32 (#1519754 - in reply to #1519693)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed




Or could a guy putt up 1/2 foam board that is adhesive on the fiberglass side prior to installing the plastic and steel would seal this up nicely. I also think you want the steel up firmly agaist some type of insulation to deaden noise

Edited by donny 1/1/2011 16:33
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Minnesotaboy
Posted 1/1/2011 16:37 (#1519762 - in reply to #1519713)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed PICS


SW Minnesota
How big is that shed??
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bwire
Posted 1/1/2011 16:54 (#1519793 - in reply to #1519588)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


Rock County, MN

"- Has anyone ever lined the walls with 2'' sheets of pink foam board insulation nailed to the inside of the boards that the exterior steel is screwed to.  This would give you 2'' of foam insulation for about .75/sq ft.  Then spray on an inch of spray foam for a completely tight seal.  This plan gives you the benifit of sprayfoam without it being stuck on your steel and the the 2'' foam board is about 1/2 price per inch think."


The foam costs about the same but you can do it incrementally and it's good idea one I've concidered too.

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Cliff SEIA
Posted 1/1/2011 17:01 (#1519804 - in reply to #1519627)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


Personally I think it would be better to have the spray foam on the outside of the batt insulation so you don't have cold air trying to blow through the batt insulation.  You would still need a vapor barrier on the inside but 6 mil plastic isn't that expensive and with the outside spray foamed you wouldn't have nearly as much air movement in your walls.  I saw one building locally where they insulated an existing steel building by spraying 1 1/2" of spray foam between 2x4s the outside steel attached too then they ran horizontal 2x4s between the posts on 24" centers to attach the inside liner too and stuck 5 1/2" batt insulation between them topped with a vapor barrier and it created an extremely tight building at a fairly reasonable cost.

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N E I F
Posted 1/1/2011 18:06 (#1519918 - in reply to #1519793)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


Northeast Iowa

the building is 48 by 64 with 16 ft sidewalls

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ks8780
Posted 1/1/2011 18:26 (#1519962 - in reply to #1519588)
Subject: Re: Insulating a pole shed



Jewell County KS
On my pole shed I started with the foil bubble insulation under the outside metal and then ended up with 2" closed cell sprayed on to it. I thought maybe the foil/bubble would be enough but decide to add the foam before I lined the interior. As a plus I can still remove a outside sheet of steel if I need to.

It seems to be working good so far.
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bwire
Posted 1/1/2011 18:46 (#1519993 - in reply to #1519918)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


Rock County, MN

ks8780's way would be better then I think. My application is a little different, all I need is 4" foam board then expanding foam at the edges to seal.

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ecwis
Posted 1/1/2011 19:15 (#1520045 - in reply to #1519713)
Subject: Re: Insulating a pole shed


Berlin, Wisconsin
What are u using to heat the water, and any idea of projected cost to heat it ?
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oldbones
Posted 1/1/2011 19:26 (#1520077 - in reply to #1519588)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed



Floyd County, Iowa
Re: "typical shelf/ bat insulation......will likely settle and be drafty".
Nonsense. Houses have been insulated with fiberglass for 50+ years, and are still using it in new construction.

If you put nailers horizontally and flat (like a "shelf") between the poles at 24" on center, use a 6" kraft faced insulation and staple it to the nailer, it will stay. The insulation is glued to the kraft(paper) facing, so it won't sag.

The trick to avoiding drafts is to install the insulation properly in the first place. Don't cut it too short, and don't bunch it up. Also, don't try to stuff 8" into a 6" thick wall- the fiberglass has to be "fluffy" to work. Using the kraft faced insulation, you don't need a poly vapor barrier on the walls.
With the horizontal nailers at 24" on center, you have something to fasten your steel liner to, as well as hanging shelving, wiring conduit, air lines , etc. If you're going to line it, you need nailers anyway. You can't span 7 or 8 feet with steel and expect it to be solid.

As far as pink foamboard, the last I knew, it was much higher priced than fiberglass, per r-value.

I don't have a clue where you are located, but if you are going to heat it, don't bother with just 3 or 4 inches of fiberglass. Put at least R19 in the walls.

Don't have any personal experience with spray foam, but have heard it's rather spendy. Probably good insulation, but I preferred to save the extra cost and use it for additional tools inside the shop.
Do what works for you and stays in your budget.
Just my opinion.
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Minnesotaboy
Posted 1/1/2011 20:27 (#1520211 - in reply to #1519713)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed PICS


SW Minnesota
From the looks of it, you must've poured the cement in 1 pour?? just wondering how you got the cement to the far end with the tubing & insulation on the floor already?
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biggrntractor
Posted 1/1/2011 21:45 (#1520387 - in reply to #1520077)
Subject: Re: Insulating a pole shed


Northern Illinois
<p>Get a local insulation guy get some 8'x 6" bats with the vapor barrier backing. We got it cut to the wall height. We clamped 2-1x2 ferring strips to the top and used a block and tackle to hoist it into place, then stapled them. We used 2x4 grits. We put one grit snug to the bottom of the truss. We stapled a piece of J metal about a 1/8" under the truss so we could slip the ceiling sheet between the J metal and the bottom of the truss. Then take a piece of tyvec or gorilla paper to create a insulation stop. Cut a 1x2 ferring strip the length of the distance between trusses. Cut a piece of tyvec that distance and roll it on the 1x2 a time or 2 and staple it. Take a 2x2 the same length and roll it a couple times on the opposite side of the paper and staple it. Nail the 1x2 on the top side of the girt and take the other side with the 2x2 in it and go up and nail it to the bottom of the 2x4 standing on edge running perpendicular to the trusses the roof sheets are nailed to. You actually need to space the 2x2 down 4" to allow air pass to the eves. We took 3/4 PVC and cut 4" long pieces and got 7 or 8" long lags from the lumber yard. Between each truss we used 2- 4" spacers and screwed them into the 2x4 that is edge ways on the top side of the truss. We then ran a screw thru the truss into each end of the 2x2. As far as the width of the paper, you want to create a "bag" to push outwards to seal against the wall bats. We used heavier gauge siding 15'6" long on 7'6" on center trusses for the ceiling sheets. That left a little overlap to simplify screwing panels up. We had 13" of fiberglass blown in which had a R value of 39. We used T6 fixtures @ &7.5'-15'-15'-15'-7.5' on a 60' width mounted on everyother truss. We nailed boxes to the truss,centered between the ribs with a 5/8 mud ring and sheeted over the box and used a roto zip to cut them out. We mounted the light to the mud ring holes and a metal to metal screw on each end of each fixture. We piped all the electrial. The building is tight, well lit and easy to heat.</p>

Edited by biggrntractor 1/1/2011 21:47
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NEILFarmer
Posted 1/1/2011 22:33 (#1520469 - in reply to #1519713)
Subject: Re: Insulating a pole shed


Morris, IL
I have a couple questions for N E I F
Is the a special kind of foam board under the floor?
What kind of insulation did you put in the ceiling?
Why did you frame the ceiling?
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donny
Posted 1/1/2011 23:00 (#1520535 - in reply to #1519793)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed


The foam board is about 1/2 price per sq foot but it does have to be installed where the foam is done
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FFJR
Posted 1/12/2011 23:41 (#1545494 - in reply to #1519706)
Subject: RE: Insulating a pole shed



nc IA
Donny,

I ran the vapor barrier and fiberglass up past the ceiling line into the heel of the truss, and stopped about 4-6" from the roof steel and stopped there with the fiberglass. The plastic is then stapled onto the bottom of the top cord of the truss and follows that out into the bay far enough that you will have about 20-24" of clearance under it to the bottom of the bottom cord. This made my "chute". Same principle as the plastic ones at a lumberyard. This allowed me to shoot the blown in up against the plastic and fill all the way out to the exterior wall fiberglass and not worry about filling the sidewall eaves up with insullation. I put in about 12-14" of blown in when I completed mine.
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