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CAT 3406E won't start
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Highplainsnotillr
Posted 7/6/2010 19:49 (#1262939)
Subject: CAT 3406E won't start


Western CO
I have a 3406E in a KW that wouldn't start about a week ago, just crank - no fire at all. Did the simple stuff (bled the fuel, checked connectors). Had CAT out on Fri. -- no codes at all in the computer, so he put a gauge on to measure fuel pressure and after just putting on the gauge, it started. Fuel pressure seemed low so he put in a fuel pressure regulator. Started just fine after this but seemed to me that the pressure was not much different from before. Anyway thought we had it solved, has started every day since then until this afternoon after starting it this morning and pulling it into the shop to rebuild the fan clutch. After we were done with the fan clutch and ready to start it it wouldn't start again. Same symptoms as before, will crank without even trying to fire. Changed out fuel filters this afternoon as well, figured might as well do the things that it can't be. The mechanic that came out also mentioned the possibility of the transfer pump. Should also mention that fuel pressure was around 50 psi, measured at the filter on the side of the motor. Any ideas? Seemed strange to me at the time that it would start after just putting the fitting in and connecting a gauge to it. Going to need this thing to be reliable pretty soon, we are days away from starting wheat harvest here.
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jedeka
Posted 7/6/2010 19:59 (#1262952 - in reply to #1262939)
Subject: Re: CAT 3406E won't start


Boone, Iowa
I know those E motors will not start is the cam sensor is acting up. I would think a bad cam sensor would throw a fault code, unless it is an intermittant problem. Just an idea.
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4020
Posted 7/6/2010 20:21 (#1262974 - in reply to #1262952)
Subject: Re: CAT 3406E won't start


You might check the cam sensor clearance. I had it happen to me. Take the sensor off and pull the plunger out all the way then make sure the gear tooth is lined up with the hole before putting the sensor in without the sealing washer. Then remove the sensor and put the washer back on and the clearance is set. Probably not your problem but it is an easy job to do and you never know.
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moonshine
Posted 7/7/2010 00:23 (#1263418 - in reply to #1262974)
Subject: Re: CAT 3406E won't start


Idaho
Try after hand pump priming and continue to pump while cranking. Not sure why but has worked here. Fuel must be bleeding off somhow. Not much help but gets it going and it might give a clue.
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CATGUY
Posted 7/7/2010 00:54 (#1263453 - in reply to #1262939)
Subject: Questions????


Iowa

A. When it did start; Did it start quickly and idle perfectly OR did it stumble, miss, blubber and then finally idle smooth?

B. Did that mechanic wiggle or move any wiring before or while he was installing the fuel pressure gauge? [note: a 3406E is getting a little old, now and wiring looms can get worn thru, look very closely at areas where the loom touches ANYTHING; example, look at loom between ECM(computer) and as it goes under the cylinder head, it attaches to "ladder brackets" with plastic ties=they can rub there. The loom also goes behind air compressor and it can rub on water line/hose and/or fuel lines and have bare spots rubbed thru it there. They also get rubbed going up and over the front cover(in front of the 1st valve cover) on the "ladder bracket" there, too.]

C. The previous recommendation to reset the depth of the front rpm/timing sensor is a good idea, too.

D. Do you have a fuel hand priming pump on this engine? If not, I highly recommend installing one. It helps in troubleshooting along with filling/bleeding fuel filters, too.

E. You didn't give me a year or serial number, so I will tell you that the book spec for a 1999 engine 3406E (s/n 2WS prefix) says 78 psi fuel pressure at idle, and 93 psi fuel pressure at HIGH idle. {BIG note: There are two styles of transfer pump= early and late; early =all cast housing and has lower fuel pressure=probably only see 62-65 psi at idle WITH its old, original style "fuel return check valve". The late style= higher pressures and it has an aluminum end plate on it(=where the fittings attach to it), this style can use either an old, style "fuel return check valve" OR the newer, higher pressure "fuel return check valve". Special note: Just don't use an old pump, with the newer,high pressure "fuel return check valve". }

Either way 50 psi sounds a little low for idle, even with early style transfer pump and earlier, style fuel return valve, but IF engine started very quickly and sounded smooth immediately, then I would be looking at electrical condition as much as fuel pressure condition.(so if you had 35-50 psi cranking and no start and no smoke, that should tell you that fuel pressure isn't your main culprit, even though it is a little low: BUT you have now changed fuel filters, SO maybe it will improve; who knows?)

Now, The old style transfer pumps "can" suck air, when they are old and the lip-seals start to fail, but they don't actually leak fuel externally, either. Also, there high pressure relief valve,internally, can get stuck in one position and causes low fuel pressure while cranking, low fuel pressure at idle, but the extra high fuel pressure at high idle(MAX rpms). I need more fuel pressure readings to determine that.

Really need the answer to question #A first.

 

 



Edited by CATGUY 7/7/2010 00:57
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Highplainsnotillr
Posted 7/7/2010 10:03 (#1263760 - in reply to #1263453)
Subject: RE: Answers..


Western CO
A. When it started right after he put the guage on it, it sort of coughed a little and then started but ran normal after it started - no stumble or miss. After that it seemed to start normal but now that I'm thinking about it when I moved it into the shop yesterday it sort of seemed a little rough running but I sort of dismissed that as being cold at the time.

B. About the only wiring I can remember him checking was for the timing sensor, I'll look at the wiring again. Would it throw a code if it weren't getting a signal though?

C. I was going to do that this morning.

D. Yes it has a hand priming pump. When I primed it yesterday after we changed the filters I did get sort of a "crackle" from the filter housing but assumed that was air at the time. I bled it until I got a good stream of fuel out of the air bleed screw.

E. It's in a 1996 truck. Eng. serial # is 5EK74730.

It does have the old style transfer pump on it -- and the new check valve that he installed was the old style. He also explained to me what you said about not using the new style valve with the old pumps.

I will add that during cranking the check engine light will go out and the tach shows RPM's. Battery's are in good shape - they crank her nice and fast.
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Bern
Posted 7/7/2010 10:37 (#1263813 - in reply to #1263760)
Subject: RE: Answers..


Mount Vernon, WA
It will not throw a code if it's not getting a signal. The only way the ECM knows it's being cranked is if it sees a cam sensor signal. So, if there's no signal, the ECM simply assumes the key switch is on, but the driver has not yet cranked the engine.

Easiest way to tell if it's getting a speed signal is to look at the tach if it's data link/ECM driven. No tach reading while cranking means no cam sensor signal.
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CATGUY
Posted 7/8/2010 02:02 (#1264921 - in reply to #1263760)
Subject: RE: Answers..


Iowa

Sorry for the late response. I am working late this week. Don't get home till 10:00 pm (Pacific Time).

A. With your answer, My guess is that you probably aren't having an "air in the fuel" type of problem. That would really hurt your "cranking" fuel pressure.

B. Another "check" on the wiring, is that you can wiggle the loom around while the engine is idling and see if the engine "burps" or jumps/hesitates in RPMs. Wiggle it at the ECM, under the cylinder head, behind the air compressor, right at the RPM/timing sensor, right where the loom curves in front of the front valve cover, etc.

C. Did the adjustment seem to look any different, from when you first removed it? I know it is hard to tell, without measuring it beforehand, but sometimes a guy came visually see a little difference. What color was the tip? If it was black or white, I think I would replace it. If it was green tip, they have been pretty reliable, but they still can fail, too. The newest rpm/timing sensors are solid and non-adjustable.( I assume they are more powerful, to pick up the "reference teeth" for the signal to the ECM, thus no adjustment.)

D. Good, that you have a hand priming pump on the engine.

E. Thanks for the serial number. That engine will have a little lower fuel pressure than later engines and/or later transfer pumps. I still expect 60-65 psi at idle. CAT says anything below 35 psi , while running will cause misfire.

On what Bern said, about the OEM tach, if the tach is operated by its own (KW) sensor, then there should be a sensor(magnetic pick-up) in the lower area of the CAT rear engine bellhousing(points towards flywheel ring gear teeth). If you were to stand behind the engine, and look at the bellhousing, then the KW tach sensor would either be at the 5:00 o'clock position or the 7:00 o'clock position. The KW tach sensor will have two wires coming out of it. My guess is that KW still used their own sensor to operate their tach, back then, before they felt 100% comfortable using the CAT signal for their dash tach.

Also, as Bern said, there won't be any fault code IF, during cranking, the "RPM SIGNAL" isn't getting generated(bad sensoror not getting back to the ECM(bad wiring), thus the ECM never tells the injectors to fire(doesn't know the engine is actually cranking).

 

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Highplainsnotillr
Posted 7/8/2010 10:29 (#1265174 - in reply to #1264921)
Subject: RE: Answers..


Western CO
No problems on the late reply - I appreciate the comments.


A. I agree here, I think we've bled it enough and this doesn't seem to be the problem.

B. If we could get it to start we'll try this. I did check it over relatively well yesterday and didn't see any problems.

C. Probably should have measured it but it didn't really look any different to me after I adjusted it. It has a green tip.

E. Well it would seem we are certainly getting better than 35 psi, or at least we were the other day when the mechanic had the gauge on it.

I have CAT coming out again this morning to look at it again. Hopefully we will get her going.

Thanks again for the help.
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Highplainsnotillr
Posted 7/8/2010 22:12 (#1265821 - in reply to #1264921)
Subject: RE: Some more info


Western CO
We got it running again this morning after pumping the hand primer a bunch. Seems that you could certainly hear air making a "cavitation" in the lines. The mechanic that came out hooked up sight glasses and thought that it was "aerating" fuel on the return side. In his opinion it had to be an injector leaking. Well since the local ag shop couldn't get it in anyway, we drove it to Denver to the truck shop for Wagner CAT. After talking with one of the mechanics there the guy here hooked the sight glasses up in entirely the wrong places and that is why it looked like there was air in the return side. Anyway the last that I heard was that the filter base was allowing some air in, and the hand primer needs to be replaced (it was leaking some fuel on the outside). Also they found some rubber bits from the inside of the fuel lines coming from the tank. Still all seems kind of odd with the possible exception of the hand primer - I probably should have thought about that more. Soooo all in all I'm not particularly happy with the local guys, two service calls and pretty much completely wrong diagnosis. Thinking I will have a talk with the service manager about that.
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CATGUY
Posted 7/9/2010 03:14 (#1266108 - in reply to #1265821)
Subject: RE: Some more info


Iowa

Thanks for the additional info.

I assume the fuel filter base, that they believe is allowing air into the system, is the PRIMARY fuel filter base. (on the suction side of the system)

You could ask, if the Wagner CAT truck mechanics, also measured "fuel restriction" on the fuel supply system/hose. Those rubber bits are probably coming from the interior of your old, large fuel supply hoses. Also, look at your fuel tanks, have they rotated from the correct, original position(If the filler cap, on the tank, is almost straight up, vertical, then it has rotated) This rotation can cause the OEM fuel supply hoses to kink, causes fuel restriction and is really hard on the inner rubber of those hoses. We've seen lines bent tighter than 90 degrees, typically on log trucks or "heavy haulers", because they go thru some very "frame-twisting" environment/roads out in the woods/forest.

I could see the same twisting action going on with farm trucks, loaded, coming out of a field driveway, too.

If you can live without the truck, for one extra morning, then consider letting Wagner CAT keep the truck , overnight, WITH their sight glasses installed, so they can watch them during the next morning start-up(usually takes two people; one turns key,the other guy watches sight glasses closely at the immediately, critical cranking and first few seconds after start-up.) This helps to either "verify" an earlier repair, or prove to them that there is still a problem, that next morning. We would normally have a fuel pressure gauge hooked up also. I assume Denver CAT is very familiar with this.

Note: I have had as many as 6 sight glasses plumbed to one engine to find difficult, intermittent problems. We have tee fittings on our sight glasses(with quick disconnects) so restriction gauges can be quickly added to measure restriction on the fuel supply system.

Edit: I reread your post, I realize now, that you stated the rubber bits were coming from the fuel lines. Hopefully, they will get you fixed up and running.

 

 

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Highplainsnotillr
Posted 7/9/2010 23:21 (#1267140 - in reply to #1266108)
Subject: RE: Some more info


Western CO
Here's what was done, hopefully it will solve the problem.

New Lines from fuel tank, new filter base for primary (water separator) filter, new transfer pump, new hand primer.

Thanks again for the replies and the help.
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CATGUY
Posted 7/10/2010 00:44 (#1267257 - in reply to #1267140)
Subject: Thanks for giving us the final outcome/repair (NT)


Iowa

.

 

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