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LP forklift hard to start?
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7110mag
Posted 2/7/2010 23:00 (#1063749)
Subject: LP forklift hard to start?


Owens Cross Roads, AL
I bought a Hyster 50 lift a couple of weeks ago, the problem is that it doesn't want to start when it has been setting for a couple of days. After I crank it, it will start right up all day long. Is there a problem in the fuel system or low compression? The other day I had to give it a shot of starting fluid and it fired right up. I don't anything about LP systems, need help. Wilson
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hay_rules
Posted 2/7/2010 23:08 (#1063762 - in reply to #1063749)
Subject: Re: LP forklift hard to start?


lucknow,ontario
on your tyota there is the fuel shot off valve and then there is a screw on top you adjust it and that helps have a look
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Mike SE IL
Posted 2/7/2010 23:24 (#1063782 - in reply to #1063749)
Subject: Charlie always said ...



West Union, Illinois

Charlie was (to use a current term) my mentor in the LP business most of what I know about LP is because he taught me.  Charlie said "Whenever a propane fueled engine starts acting up to rebuild the vaporizer.  Even if that isn't the problem it will help."

Most LP motor fuel systems work off a vacuum. The engine has to pull enough vacuum to actually draw the propane into the carb.

Have you tried priming the carb?  On the vaporizer there should be a button right in the middle like this IMPCO

 It may have a solenoid over it like this Century 

   If no solenoid try this.  Turn on the gas tank, push in the primer button until it gets hard to push, then try starting the engine. 

If it has a solenoid you'll have to find which switch activates it.You should be able to take 2 - 4 bolts out and remove it to see if it is working BUT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW LP SYSTEMS LET SOMEONE TRAINED OR EXPERIENCED DO IT.  It isn't worth risking injury or explosion.  It isn't rocket science but it is a hazardous material and can quickly injure you if you make a mistake.

(photos borrowed from http://www3.shopping.com/xDN-building_supplies-propane_adapters)

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Orin
Posted 2/8/2010 01:47 (#1063904 - in reply to #1063782)
Subject: Rebuilding the vaporizer.....



Nusbaum Farms LLC Bellfountain, OR
Mike, how hard a job is that? Easier than your average gas carb kit, or harder? We've had our LP Yale for ten years now and I'm just now beginning to understand it.

-Orin
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Mike SE IL
Posted 2/8/2010 04:55 (#1063923 - in reply to #1063904)
Subject: RE:how hard a job is that? Rebuilding the vaporizer.....



West Union, Illinois

massey760man - how hard a job is that? Easier than your average gas carb kit, or harder?
I'd say it's easier.  Messier, though.  It's been 2-3 years since I did one ... or 4-5 now that I think about it.  And remember I'm doing it Charlie's way,  We removed the vaporizer and totally disassembled and cleaned it first. I don't think you necessarily have to remove it, but it would be easier. That's messy because of the coolant half of the vaporizer. The trickiest part is setting it ... kind of like a carb.  Most of the ones I played with had a whole pile of parts

 and instructions.

FIRST with the engine running turn off the LP tank.  It will run forever it seems. Once it dies turn off the ignition switch and go do something else until the coolant is safe to work with. I suggest making up some soap solution.  Your LP guy will have the good stuff.  But if you decide to make your own I suggest using shampoo instead of dish soap.  Dish soap often has ammonia in it which messes with brass fittings.

You will also want disposable gloves.  Because the oily stuff you are going to find inside will stay with you for days.

The next step will be put on some LP/anhydrous gloves.

 If you don't have any dipped, lined, water and chemical resistant lined gloves you can improvise with a pair of well insulated gloves, maybe with unlined rubber gloves over them. Eye protection is a good idea as well.  You just want to be careful disconnecting the LP lines in case there should be pressure in them.  Liquid LP gets to -44 VERY quickly and does really nasty things to exposed skin.

There may be a fuel lock off which should have a filter inside

This one does not have a filter

You ought to replace the filter while you have the system down.  

I'm not trying to be a lawyer with all the side-stepping, cautions, "may's" and "should's".  It's just that A) there's a lot of variations in equipment B) who knows what modifications someone may have performed on it and C) there are undoubtably folks reading this who really ought to let someone else do the work.

We used mostly Impco  vaporizers with VFF30 lock offs.  And while we worked with LP every day with no problem, an untrained or inexperienced person without a "Charlie" standing by could do something D&D (Dumb & Dangerous)

A site I stumbled across while writing this is http://www.propanecarbs.com  Use your own discretion, I know nothing about them but the site looks helpful.

The actual work is a no-brainer if you follow the instructions. I really recommend the disposable gloves ... and throw away coveralls. And do it Monday morning so the smell wears off your skin a bit by Saturday night.

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farmerbk
Posted 2/8/2010 08:01 (#1063977 - in reply to #1063923)
Subject: Are weather problems related.....


Seymour, IL
Mike,

does cold weather make the regulator problem worse? There are three forklifts in the neighborhood that run on propane, and in warm/hot weather run pretty well, but are hard or no start in cold weather and run fair if started until warm.

Thanks

bryon
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Mike SE IL
Posted 2/8/2010 08:46 (#1064019 - in reply to #1063977)
Subject: RE: Are weather problems related.....



West Union, Illinois

farmerbk - does cold weather make the regulator problem worse? There are three forklifts in the neighborhood that run on propane, and in warm/hot weather run pretty well, but are hard or no start in cold weather and run fair if started until warm.
I don't want to be known as the LP motor fuel guy because all I know is from my pretty much limited experience.  I'm going to say the best answer is "Yes,  sometimes".  Cold weather and propane are a poor combination.

I had a route customer with an old Ford pickup on LP that would start at -20 setting outside with no heat. He was an exception.  Charlie taught me (back to Charlie again) if it got much below freezing to plug it in and always let the engine warm up a little before trying to drive it.

I just realized my first experience with LP as a motor fuel. My best friend in High School's dad managed a local LP plant.  I remember pulling in his driveway one late fall day to see Bud pouring hot water on something under his truck's hood. He said he knew he should have let the #$%^ thing warm up first.  Bud lived across the street half a block from the office.  He was only crossing the highway so he didn't let it warm up first.

3 basic facts you need to know to understand the problem

1)Liquid propane does not burn. VAPORIZED propane burns. For reasons we won't dive into here propane is taken from the fuel tank in liquid state.

2) When a liquid held under pressure above its boiling point is released to atmospheric pressure it boils and it makes the temperature its boiling point.  If you use a pressure cooker to heat water, when it escapes as steam it is 212F.  The boiling point of propane is -44F.  So when it changes from liquid to vapor it is -44.

3) Firefighting 101 teaches us fire requires heat, oxygen, and fuel. 

How is all that relevant? LP engines run on vapor and water cooled engines generally use a coolant warmed vaporizer to get the propane warm enough it is a vapor state.  When it is cold the propane does not vaporize well.  Until the water in the vaporizer is warm your engine's fuel supply is lousy.  It may have droplets of liquid that do not burn well and when they turn to vapor rob heat out of the combustion chamber.   This liquid propane is robbing the combustion process of 2 of the 3 requirements for a fire.  No fire, engine no run.

Rebuilding a vaporizer may help that.  As the vaporizer is used it builds up "crud" inside.  The crud keeps it from working like it should.  Back to "Charlie said" ..cleaning the crud out is the most important part of a vaporizer rebuild.  So if your forklift is not running well until it is warm you might try rebuilding or replacing the vaporizer.

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Orin
Posted 2/8/2010 10:55 (#1064170 - in reply to #1064019)
Subject: RE: Are weather problems related.....



Nusbaum Farms LLC Bellfountain, OR
Mike SE IL - 2/8/2010 05:46

I don't want to be known as the LP motor fuel guy because all I know is from my pretty much limited experience. 



Looks like you're the resident expert around this board, anyway. Seriously though, thanks for the detailed explanation of the "how's and whys".

-Orin
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tim42163
Posted 2/8/2010 10:58 (#1064177 - in reply to #1064019)
Subject: Very helpful information. Thank you, Mike!!


Western Iowa
Not forklifts, but we have a few Minneapolis Moline LP tractors. And yes, we have had starting issues, which were more prevalent in cold weather. We always figured that the ignition system on those tractors was the limitation -- as if they were not adequate for propane in cold weather. Dad thought converting to an electronic ignition would be a good idea, but didn't find someone who knew how to do it. We installed coolant heaters and had to have those tractors plugged in in the cold weather, or they would not start.

We never tried disassembling a vaporizer, and never really considered it. I now remember that Dad put a new vaporizer on our main loader tractor (that was 30 years ago), and that was a big improvement. Now I know that the vaporizer system needs to be maintained.

Would an electronic ignition conversion also help those engines? Thank you.

Edited by tim42163 2/8/2010 11:00
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Mike SE IL
Posted 2/8/2010 12:55 (#1064322 - in reply to #1064177)
Subject: RE: Would an electronic ignition conversion also help those engines?



West Union, Illinois

tim42163 - Would an electronic ignition conversion also help those engines?
We're quickly getting past my experience.  I would say yes, electronic is always better than points, but...  The "but" is, as I understand it the timing needs to be set slightly differently than on gasoline. I don't know if it is distributor timing, spark advance, or just what.  I just remember being told there was an ignition mod usually needed.

I can't address how it was different because I never got into that aspect of it. If it got to that point I was out of Band-Aids and we sent the patient off to a mechanic.  I remember being told this is why when converting a computerized engine you have to put in a box that converts what is really happening to what the computer wants to see.

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Jon Hagen
Posted 2/8/2010 14:17 (#1064440 - in reply to #1064322)
Subject: RE: Would an electronic ignition conversion also help those engines?



Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND
Mike SE IL - 2/9/2010 11:55

tim42163 - Would an electronic ignition conversion also help those engines?
We're quickly getting past my experience.  I would say yes, electronic is always better than points, but...  The "but" is, as I understand it the timing needs to be set slightly differently than on gasoline. I don't know if it is distributor timing, spark advance, or just what.  I just remember being told there was an ignition mod usually needed.

I can't address how it was different because I never got into that aspect of it. If it got to that point I was out of Band-Aids and we sent the patient off to a mechanic.  I remember being told this is why when converting a computerized engine you have to put in a box that converts what is really happening to what the computer wants to see.




Hot Electronic ignition is a definate plus to a propane fueled engine. Standard for point ignition was to gap the plugs at only .015 and you needed to change them at not many hours if you wanted it to start / run good.
When I converted my 454 Chevy repowered Oliver tractors from point ignition to hot HEI electronic ignition, I can now run the plugs at .035 and not change them for years. Starts much better too.
I have two pickups and the two Olivers on propane, All have electronic ignition and will start down to - 15 If I need to start them at a colder temp, I plug in the engine heater. I have started the tractors at more than - 20 without plugging in by giving them just a sniff of starting fluid in the air intake.
It seems that if you get one or two cylinders to pop on starting fluid, then it will run on propane.
As Mike stated, let them idle dead slow until the coolant warms a little, otherwise the vaporizer will freeze and you get no vapor to run the engine.

A stiff aged secondary diaphram in the vaporizer, or oily sludge in the vaporizer or blocking the vapor hose is the most likely cause of a hard cold starting lp engine.

Make sure the mechanical or electric primer works if your rig has one. Their fairly cheap to add if yours does not.

The type of propane carb also determines the best cold start procedure.
The IMPCO air valve carbs start best at open throttle, a century venturi type carb starts easier at slow idle throttle position.
Propane engines usually run a little more initial and total ignition advance than the same engine running on gasoline, because propane burns a little slower than gas.

Edited by Jon Hagen 2/8/2010 14:20
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swanie
Posted 2/8/2010 20:33 (#1064965 - in reply to #1064322)
Subject: Re: LP forklift hard to start?


Pecatonica il
when you are talking about hard starting how long are you having to crank it. does it have a vacuum, fuel shut off or electric. Are you getting fuel to the carb or do you need a tune up. The thing to keep in mind is that it works good after that first start. I work on lift trucks full time post the modle and ser # i will get you the spec on it if you need.
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farmerbk
Posted 2/8/2010 13:10 (#1064350 - in reply to #1064019)
Subject: THANKS Mike!!


Seymour, IL
I appreciate the reply and insight

bryon
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7150
Posted 2/7/2010 23:26 (#1063784 - in reply to #1063749)
Subject: Re: LP forklift hard to start?



My LP CAT forklift had 2 filters inside the regulator (the LP carberator). They didn't look dirty, but after replacing them, it was much, much easier to start and maintained an idle.
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uofiben
Posted 2/8/2010 00:55 (#1063883 - in reply to #1063749)
Subject: Re: LP forklift hard to start?


We have always had to pump the gas pedal while cranking ours. Otherwise there is a primer button you can push.
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AR Plowboy
Posted 2/8/2010 09:36 (#1064077 - in reply to #1063749)
Subject: Re: LP forklift hard to start?



East Central Arkansas
With the LP gas stuff I have it has allways seemed it is critical to keep the points and plugs in better shape than an engine on gasoline. Make sure you have the right plugs for LP gas and that the gap is set right for LP. On my LP JD 4020's the point gap is .016 and the plug gap is .015 inch. I don't know how many times on those tractors I have been using them and they would be running fine and would cut them off they wouldn't start again till either the points or plugs were changed. On the cold weather thing I have a 78 F150 with a straight LP gas system on it and it allways started good cold,hot or inbetween.
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MN Dean
Posted 2/8/2010 17:34 (#1064632 - in reply to #1063749)
Subject: Re: LP forklift hard to start?



I have a clark forklift with a documented 30000 hours. I first rebuilt the regulator because the diaphram was bad that helped some. The main problem ended up being the advance in the distributor. the tabs that the advance springs mount to were bending in and that allowed the springs to become loose and that let the cam move back and forth more than the gap in the points. Made a huge difference it also improved throttle responce.
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