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Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3
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NYGRAIN
Posted 1/12/2010 17:36 (#1019237)
Subject: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


New York
Has anyone tried the new dawn 3005 with the zipper closing wheel kit? I am thinking of adding them on my blue jet nh3 tool bar that is a 4x6 bar, will this work OK. I do both pre plant nh3 and sidedress no-till. Would love to get away from the knives. Is this a good idea?
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KS Hurricane
Posted 1/12/2010 18:26 (#1019323 - in reply to #1019237)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


depth of NH3 not deep enough here in NE Kansas. Fantastic way to apply if you could place it deep enough.
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joeatdawn
Posted 1/12/2010 18:58 (#1019374 - in reply to #1019323)
Subject: Re: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3



The model 6000 will easily run 6" deep FYI
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KS Hurricane
Posted 1/12/2010 19:40 (#1019473 - in reply to #1019374)
Subject: Re: Joe: Cost of 6000, with all the toys???


What does 6000 w/ all attachments cost. Can they be mtd on a 4X4 frame?
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deerefarm
Posted 1/12/2010 20:40 (#1019570 - in reply to #1019473)
Subject: Re: Joe: Cost of 6000, with all the toys???


North Central North Dakota
the model 3004 is about $1400 Im not sure about the 6000
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Jim
Posted 1/12/2010 21:20 (#1019680 - in reply to #1019473)
Subject: Re: Joe: Cost of 6000, with all the toys???


Driftless SW Wisconsin

If you are going to run a 20" diameter coulter 6" deep at 8-9 mph possibly in rocks with airbag down pressure system, the toolbar loads are completely different than pulling a shank on a double 4x4 or 4x6 bar. 

The 6000 is designed for a 7x7 toolbar like many heavy duty cultivators use. I don't usually discuss prices however the 6000 is  not on our online price list. With airbags and set up for anhydrous the M-6000 price is $2950. New 15" double wheel row cleaner, designed for the 6000 and Pluribus in heavy fall corn, attachment adds $300.

However it seals 200 units of N so well in our tests that it is very feasible to go every other row which cuts side dress costs, weight, hp, etc in half. The 6000 has a unique adjustable coulter blade angle feature, hydraulic damped shock absorber on the closing wheels to keep them sealing, not bouncing at 8+ mph. Easily adjustable 4" wide gage wheel has Timken tapered roller bearings, not ball bearings. Joe has done a good job with the concepts and many details of the design.

The 3000 series is a fertilizer coulter intended and designed for planter applications and space limitations. It was not originally designed for anhydrous although it is being used in nh3 application.

The 6000 is a whole different animal designed for toolbar applications, NH3 application and sealing, and custom applicator rates, ground speed and durability. We feel its cost is competitive with other nh3 coulter application systems on the market. It seals NH3 very well in tough conditions. It is very different from the 3005 but developed out of the need we saw from work with the 3000 series.

Here is a video of it running on a 7x7 bar in KS terraces recently putting down both ammonia and dry from a Montag cart in one pass operation. This is very different from the 3005 - the 6000 has much more vertical travel, a larger blade and more down force capability. In the video the Trashwheels were up and not being used - the customer wanted minimum disturbance in these hills and terraces but maximum sealing. Hard to tell anything is coming out until he lifts. We are very proud of this new product.

Jim at Dawn



Edited by Jim 1/12/2010 22:08
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joeatdawn
Posted 1/12/2010 23:33 (#1019983 - in reply to #1019680)
Subject: Re: Joe: Cost of 6000, with all the toys???



I would add that the 3004/5 series is going to continue as the preferred solution for the wheat sidedress market where you have lower rates but need to be on narrower rows. The 6000 is more geared to row crop producers.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3dxQSKyBkQ



Edited by joeatdawn 1/12/2010 23:36
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1967806
Posted 1/13/2010 00:26 (#1020056 - in reply to #1019680)
Subject: Re: Joe: Cost of 6000, with all the toys???


Corydon, IA
That looks nice. Just what we need around here, residue left on top and a nice clean trench left by shank, not a deep trench to wash out next time it rains. How well do these seal in our southern iowa clay?
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superfarmer
Posted 1/13/2010 08:08 (#1020240 - in reply to #1019680)
Subject: Re: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


SW Ontario
I've been seriously considering the 3000's for anhydrous too. Will they work at lower speeds (5mph) in warmer weather? They will be going on the planter, with little if any no-till. Also, what is the availibility (when do I need to order for march delivery) and do you know of any used ones? Thanks.
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NYGRAIN
Posted 1/13/2010 08:18 (#1020256 - in reply to #1019680)
Subject: 3005 question


New York
Hi Jim, I am wondering if the 3005 would be ok at rates of 175lb/acre of product and going every row(30"12 row) will it seal OK? In our soils here in upstate NY every row has always been a better yield. Also would like to know if the walking zipper would be a better sealing benefit than the single? My dealer was here yesterday and will be calling out to you for availability on the 3005. Also I am using the raven automatic rate control system and a impala cone distributor manifold.

Edited by NYGRAIN 1/13/2010 08:21
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joeatdawn
Posted 1/13/2010 10:21 (#1020421 - in reply to #1020256)
Subject: Re: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3



No, that is model 6000 territory.
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joeatdawn
Posted 1/13/2010 10:22 (#1020424 - in reply to #1020240)
Subject: Re: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3



There were some used ones listed on this forum a while back. I don't know of any off hand. WHat type of planter is it? And what rate are you looking to put down?
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Someday
Posted 1/13/2010 12:32 (#1020524 - in reply to #1019237)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


I want to do something like that too. I have always been a Dawn man as back in my salesmen days the equipment always worked, lasted forever, and always fit. Had nothing but trouble with Yetter equipment CaseIH had their coulter with knife directly behind it and it was nothing but an anyuerism. It needed constant set up of the knife etc. However Yetter has caught my attention again

I too would like to get the Dawn 3004. As I search the net of previous talk Dawn themselves say rates of 180# of product would be fine on every 30" just don't feel it would flex enough in our country. I also find people that have done it and love it and works fine. (Hair pulling) So I don't know what to think. There is no way I'm going to some $3000/ row setup. Someone will perfect a more economical setup than this. Just don't see this setup as necessary unless you have some ungoshly uneven land. I think Dawn should make the 3004 with a larger coulter and parallel linkage and you'd have it kicked.

However it looks to me that Yetter has come a long way with its products. They have the 2987 recently released and on the front page of their website too. It has a larger coulter that would go deeper I would think. It also has a skid shoe to help with soil throw and a smooth closing wheel that would flip up less rocks I would think also. They have some real nice pictures even in high yield standing corn stalks. I just wonder if Yetter's quality and dependability has truly been improved.

Bought a brand new Blu-Jet bar 13 knife a few years ago and really didn't do any no till at the time. Since started doing a lot more no till corn into bean stubble with same yields and even higher yields than min. till on a dry year. I have tried lower disturbance knives and see no difference. We go on an angle with the bar and plant across it and seen no problems. What I don't like is the disturbed soil of the knife, loss of residue, and pulling up rock.

Would like to seel the spring knife assembly and coulters off our bar and get something like the Dawn 3004 or Yetter 2987.

Blu-Jet themselves are not working on any no till setup and claim that no one has really got it down pat yet as far as a no-till coulter setup as far as sealing high rates.

I thought someone on here a while back in MN put the Dawn 3004's on and loves it.
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lvvfarms
Posted 1/13/2010 13:49 (#1020612 - in reply to #1019237)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


I ran the 3005's on a Kinze planter in no-till and had good results. The most nh3 we put down was about 110lbs. actual n but we seen no smoke or smell. I also have twelve of them for sale if any one is interested. The reason for selling is that we started strip-tilling. 701-336-7424 and I am located on the N and S Dakota Border East ofthe Missouri river
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joeatdawn
Posted 1/13/2010 14:48 (#1020662 - in reply to #1020524)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3



What is the dollar value of 10% of the nh3 you want to apply because that could easily be the difference between average and good sealing. Look, a 3000$ injection coulter isn't going to be for everyone, that's fine. And the model 6000 is definitely not for people who want to strip an existing knife bar and convert it over ("Do you buy a Ferrari and put cheap gas in it?"), the 3000 series is for that. What our mandate is is to make absolutely the finest piece of equipment that can be made with a level of features you aren't going to find elsewhere. People want an ammonia coulter that will-

take low power
run at high speed
have large amounts of vertical travel
place nh3, liquid and dry at same time below the surface
run in heavy fall untilled corn stalks
run in loose conventionally tilled side dress conditions
run in very wet early spring conditions
seal 200# nh3 reliably in widely varied soil conditions
be able to smash against rocks all day
be able to penetrate wheel tracks

If this sounds easy or cheap to you let me know. I don't want to sell to everyone. John Deere is making a good product in the 2510H that will likely be the standard for the bulk of the marketplace. The Yetter product is obviously positioned below them and we are positioned above them. I want to sell to the select few of you for whom performance when it counts is everything. There are also quite a number of guys out there that I would refer to as nh3 "enthusiasts"- I want to deliver the cutting edge features these guys want. Keep in mind also that the model 6000 you are looking at is a proof of concept unit. The production units that will begin shipping in March will be even hotter.

Edited by joeatdawn 1/13/2010 14:49
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Someday
Posted 1/13/2010 16:20 (#1020762 - in reply to #1020662)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


Well I sense your sarcasm if that is what you meant.


The bar we bought brand new from Blu-Jet a few years ago so don't feel that is ancient by any means. To apply 300-500 acres of anhydrous per year is never going to justify the 6000 model. I would never want to go much over 7mph anyway. I could justify the 3004/3005 if I could sell my spring reset knives and lead coulters to someone that wants to go to strip till.

So will your 3004 work on 30" centers at 180# product in simple soybean residue for no- tilling corn onto soybean stubble and or fall chiseled corn on corn ground ?? Does the zipper wheel need to have the fingers on it as I don't want to flip up any rock?

Your 3004 greatly interests me and I would think it would work very nice. I will certainly grant that someone with corn on corn would probably want the 6000.

I can afford Lincolns but Fords are even too fancy nowdays but thats what I drive.
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joeatdawn
Posted 1/13/2010 17:20 (#1020815 - in reply to #1020762)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3



I didn't mean to sound sarcastic. It is just a bit frustrating because it simply costs money to make things right. If you are running the 3005 with zipper in bean stubble I would take it down to 15" or 20" for 180#. We have a variety of mounting brackets for different frame heights/sizes.
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superfarmer
Posted 1/13/2010 19:25 (#1020991 - in reply to #1020424)
Subject: Re: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


SW Ontario
I've got a 16row kinze, planning on every other row, with a max rate of 200lb at about 5mph. I'm hoping I can use most of my old hiniker flow control, but would consider a new system if needed. Would really like to get away from shanks due to hp and the odd rock/stick.,.....
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redfarm
Posted 1/13/2010 21:59 (#1021355 - in reply to #1020612)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


Joe/Jim,

What can you do for guys that want to sidedress on 30" centers using 160-200 lbs. of NH3 in loose conventional-till conditions? Realizing the cost of the 6000 unit makes it more attractive for skip row, however, we need to apply 3/4 of our nitrogen sidedress to maximize cost efficiency of NH3 vs. liquid.

The goal is to be able to run full 200# of NH3 in emergency conditions. We have looked at liquid sidedress but run into the same limitations on high rates at sidedress. We used a DMI 2800 applicator on a few acres last year having to double pass to get the needed N rate applied at sidedress. I cannot justify the expense of a machine that can only apply half of N requirements, no matter how fast I can drive.

I appreciate your efforts to evolve NH3 application, we have along way to go. I had hoped that we would have turned a corner on cheaper or equivalent priced liquid N, but it never comes to pass. It looks like we need to work towards improving our efficiency at sidedress NH3 through more effective equipment, without sacrificing that ability to handle all situations that may arise. The 2510H bars were a joke in sidedress this year in northern Illinois, where higher NH3 rates are applied at sidedress. I have never turned whole fields yellow with a knife toolbar even in the most marginal conditions. Higher speed and lower disturbance is great, however performance and durability of the equipment is still a higher priority.

Keep working towards a comprehensive solution, we certainly need it. The sidedress market had been dead for over a decade until higher N prices and late planting brought back the need for more than the few of us that still participated throughout.
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joeatdawn
Posted 1/14/2010 00:17 (#1021615 - in reply to #1021355)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3



Thank you for the kind words. A knife is a really simple and effective device for what it does. They have been used essentially unchanged for so long. Like making a spork that works just as well as a spoon or fork. We're just going to do what we do and try to do it the best we can.
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Someday
Posted 1/14/2010 10:57 (#1022010 - in reply to #1020815)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


No, I need to stay on 30" as I pre plant and sidedress as well.
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Someday
Posted 1/14/2010 11:02 (#1022017 - in reply to #1021355)
Subject: RE: Dawn single disk fert opener for nh3


I think if Dawn went with a larger coulter for more depth and put a parallel linkage on the 3004/5 a guy would have it licked. JD has a nice idea but tried to save $ using the single disk off their drills; who drills anything 4-6" deep ?? I just don't see Deere's set up working as it is.
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