AgTalk Home
AgTalk Home
Search Forums | Classifieds (93) | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Billing Issue - Shop Supplies
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forums List -> Machinery TalkMessage format
 
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 20:04 (#5011131)
Subject: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Tuscola, IL
I recently had an interaction with a customer about his bill. Among his many complaints was the charge for shop supplies. I know this has been discussed a number of times but I'm wanting to get some opinions from you guys, the customer, as well as anyone that has ever done billing, on what might be a fair way to handle this.

I don't have the bill in front of me right now, but it was roughly $1000 total. Labor was right at $450. The shop supplies came out to $22 and change. With the job involved, we used penetrating oil, brake clean, oxy/acetylene torch, a number of rags, some electrical connectors, and crimped 4 ends on 2 hydraulic hoses. The customer was not billed for any of these items except for the hoses and ends. Everything else was covered under "shop supplies".

Obviously, there is no way to bill out 1/100th of a can of brake clean. The electrical connectors we do have part numbers for, but have found that it takes more time to write down the part number (or go back and find it if you forgot it) than to just consider it a shop supply. Higher end connectors like Deutsch and Weatherpak we do bill separately. On this specific job, it was a number of heat shrink butt connectors and ring terminals.

My question is, what is your opinion on "shop supplies" and how would you like to see it billed. I suppose we could bill each can of brake clean, penetrating oil etc to the ticket and give the customer the remaining, unused, can. But what about oxygen and acetylene? Or welding wire or rod?

For what it's worth, I have no control over the percentage that calculates the shop supply charge. The only thing I can do is add it or subtract it completely. Let me know what you guys think or what your experience is with this.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
nks
Posted 1/4/2016 20:09 (#5011148 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


NW KS
What I think is it is overhead and should be absorbed by the markup on parts and the labor rate. Just always has struck me as ticky tack to bill an extra couple bucks for that stuff.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
johnypop
Posted 1/4/2016 20:12 (#5011158 - in reply to #5011148)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


ND

nks - 1/4/2016 08:09 What I think is it is overhead and should be absorbed by the markup on parts and the labor rate. Just always has struck me as ticky tack to bill an extra couple bucks for that stuff.


Just like a hospital billing $10 bucks for a bandaid, but nobody complains about that. Why? 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Super 65
Posted 1/4/2016 20:21 (#5011188 - in reply to #5011158)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


South Central Kansas
johnypop - 1/4/2016 20:12

nks - 1/4/2016 08:09 What I think is it is overhead and should be absorbed by the markup on parts and the labor rate. Just always has struck me as ticky tack to bill an extra couple bucks for that stuff.


Just like a hospital billing $10 bucks for a bandaid, but nobody complains about that. Why? 




They already charge $1000 for a $50 part, just like the $10 for a bandaid that should be 50 cents at the most.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 20:26 (#5011222 - in reply to #5011188)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Tuscola, IL
Keep in mind, the dealer's markup of the part is a very small percentage compared to the manufacturer markup. I agree a lot of parts prices are out of hand, but the dealer isn't making the markup you are led to believe. Especially as everyone pinches pennies more and more, discounts on parts for the dealer start to dry up. There is a good chance the dealer is selling a part for the same price he was selling it for 6 months ago, but maybe lost a 10% discount that he had been getting from the manufacturer.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
m3farmer
Posted 1/4/2016 21:54 (#5011540 - in reply to #5011222)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



SW Minnesota, Lyon County
Might be a "here" thing but I was able to see the "dealer" price for a part that I was buying. They listed the suggested list, which I would assume is making the dealer a profit", and the dealer selling price was a percentage higher than that. When there is that kind of mark-up on parts prices, I feel the shop can eat their supply costs!!!!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
tj_farmer
Posted 1/4/2016 22:47 (#5011664 - in reply to #5011540)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


NW central IL
a lot of markup here also between dealer and retail.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
nks
Posted 1/4/2016 20:23 (#5011205 - in reply to #5011158)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


NW KS
As far as I know plenty of people complain about bills for health care.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Fingers77
Posted 1/4/2016 20:09 (#5011151 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



A necessary evil. How else is a shop supposed to bill for them? These supplies don't grow on trees.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ekeller2
Posted 1/4/2016 20:17 (#5011176 - in reply to #5011151)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


So. IL
Fingers77 - 1/4/2016 20:09

A necessary evil. How else is a shop supposed to bill for them? These supplies don't grow on trees.


And $100+ an hour shop rate can't cover any misc expenses? What's next charge for shop heat because it's cold out? Or the power bill because they had to turn the light on?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
caseihfarmer
Posted 1/5/2016 09:26 (#5012308 - in reply to #5011176)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


East Central, Nebraska
I agree. I get what the original poster is saying unfortunately I rarely see a $22 shop supplies charge on a $1000 bill. its usually more like $100-200 and then I go down the list and still see stuff like penetrating oil and shop rags on the bill. maybe you are very honest and only charge a conservative estimated amount for supplies, not the case everywhere else I have seen.

where exactly does the $140 per hour shop rate go then. i don't run a shop. if you would explain it then that might help make sense of it for the people that have to pay the bills. i know for a fact that the shops in my area that charge that don't pay their employees working on the machinery much over $20 per hour after benefits.

another question is, it seems to me that the local auto shop and deere dealer and others charge by time it should take to do a job, not by how long it actually takes, how long it should take. if they are such experts in pin pointing it down to the minute then why cant they assume this project will need to be charged x number of dollars in "miscellaneous parts supplies"

Edited by caseihfarmer 1/5/2016 09:29
Top of the page Bottom of the page
case8930
Posted 1/5/2016 11:19 (#5012605 - in reply to #5012308)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


East Central, NE
I don't generally don't have a problem with the "shop supplies" part of the bill except for when I know there were no shop supplies used. For instance, driving out to the farm to diagnose a problem or hooking up a computer for 15-30 minutes and not use anything. In instances such as those there needs to be a way for the mechanic to make a note somewhere and say no shop supplies were used so the customer isn't billed.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
caseihfarmer
Posted 1/5/2016 11:50 (#5012674 - in reply to #5012605)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


East Central, Nebraska
looking through replies it appears you really got people going today. if you want to further fire people up start at thread discussing "hazardous waste recycling". I know it has to be dealt with properly but I have been charged more for antifreeze to be recycled before than what it cost new and my reply was why didn't you pour the old back in? that's crazy talk. I remember one time I said that is a fancy a/c machine, so is the one tank for recycling and the other for putting in the new. he said no. I recycled it and now it is new again.

you probably have a shop near me. if you nee more work send me an email. I did not know $88 dollar and hour shop rates still existed. I will give you $10 more an hour and we will both be happy.

the guy that posted about the smoking thing makes me laugh, I know that shop exactly . I actually have thought that maybe it is a requirement to work there.



Edited by caseihfarmer 1/5/2016 11:57
Top of the page Bottom of the page
redline
Posted 1/5/2016 10:32 (#5012464 - in reply to #5011176)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Central Iowa

ekeller2 - 1/4/2016 20:17
Fingers77 - 1/4/2016 20:09 A necessary evil. How else is a shop supposed to bill for them? These supplies don't grow on trees.
And $100+ an hour shop rate can't cover any misc expenses? What's next charge for shop heat because it's cold out? Or the power bill because they had to turn the light on?

Ssssshhhhh! Don't give them any ideas!

Top of the page Bottom of the page
KS Hurricane
Posted 1/4/2016 21:35 (#5011476 - in reply to #5011151)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


So I guess that means when we go to do custom planting or harvesting we need to charge farmer for:Grease, hand cleaner, paper towels, window cleaner, etc ??? The shop supply items is the shops cost of doing business.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
cow and calfs
Posted 1/5/2016 07:12 (#5011978 - in reply to #5011476)
Subject: +2


Fort Recovery. Ohio
real head scratcher how some farmers think it is ok with these extra charges, so why are we not paid for all the extras when we delivery our grain or livestock?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Super 65
Posted 1/4/2016 20:16 (#5011169 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


South Central Kansas
What about your electric bill, gas for heating the shop, the workbench, the uniforms worn by tech, or the vice, or the special tools that might have been used. Where does it end? Shop supplies charge is like adding on to the bill just because you can. I think most would say if 120 or 150 or what ever you charge per hour cant cover everything just raise your rate a dollar.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
DieselDennis
Posted 1/4/2016 20:22 (#5011196 - in reply to #5011169)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Brandon, MS
I understand and agree with your attempt to try to cover actual costs. It's honest and noble of you.

But the customer doesn't see it that way. You'd probably be better off billing $500 for labor and consider the supplies, building, heat, etc. as part of the shop rate.

Again, I completely agree with your opinion of what is a supply and what is a special item. And you are trying to do the honest thing, but the customer sees it as a subjective charge, and would rather not see it pointed out so bluntly. It's ticky tacky stuff.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
poor loser
Posted 1/4/2016 20:51 (#5011313 - in reply to #5011196)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



north central ky
I agree with Dennis and I have worked a shop for several years so I see both sides. I would rather not see you itemize the piddly stuff out. When we bring something to the service dept to be fixed it's usually a big job and if I'm spending several thousands of dollars there each year I don't want to see those little charges. I'm also sure that when you do a warranty job that you don't just charge the mfg. for a half of can of brake clean?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 20:58 (#5011336 - in reply to #5011313)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Tuscola, IL
You know, that's a good question and I'm going to look at some warranty tickets tomorrow. I'm not sure without looking whether we attach a shop supply charge to them or not. Thanks
Top of the page Bottom of the page
poor loser
Posted 1/4/2016 21:08 (#5011378 - in reply to #5011336)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



north central ky
What I was getting at is that I'm sure there are several half used shop supply items floating around the shop that were billed out to warranty work. So I guess you could say, you win some and you lose some.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Loren SE IA
Posted 1/4/2016 22:53 (#5011672 - in reply to #5011336)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Kalona, IA

Just like that crazy bill I got for the service call last fall when the mech. came out and didn't do anything because he didn't check his phone when I told him the problem was solved. I get this $259 bill and there was a $20 charge for misc. parts and NONE were used. To top it off I was told to go to ---- when I disputed the bill and told to never call on them again. 

BTW, I paid the whole bill then.

After that fiasco I have very little respect for the way shops charge! Esp for the little nick nack stuff!  

PS, I do custom combining and have never even considered charging for the oil and grease etc. that I use to do the job. Maybe I need to reconsider! 



Edited by Loren SE IA 1/4/2016 22:57
Top of the page Bottom of the page
PE.
Posted 1/4/2016 20:17 (#5011175 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


WC MN
The shops that charge for shop supplies and also have a higher hourly rate seem to survive will the guy who is "reasonable or cheap" tend to come and go with the seasons.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
RunninDeere/IL
Posted 1/4/2016 20:19 (#5011183 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


I wont argue the need to pay the cost of these items, just not sure it makes sense to itemize them. Have never worked in a shop, only paid the bills coming from them, but surely the mechanic is not keeping track of every little squirt of oil, shop towels, etc. I would suggest adding a certain percentage to the parts and/or labor and don't itemize them out. No need to line item the little stuff and yet needs to be paid. Really would rather not pay any of it, but guess that is another argument!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
White Workhorse
Posted 1/4/2016 20:21 (#5011189 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Sourthern WI
Would it be appropriate to add those costs to the "overhead" needed to run a business and work it out by raising your hourly rate by a few bucks? Figure out how many cans of brake clean, rags, etc. you go through a month and spread it out over billed hours. I run a machine shop and do not charge separate for tooling or material. It's simply a per part charge.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
SDGREEN
Posted 1/4/2016 20:25 (#5011220 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


S.Dakota
I have never had a problem with being billed for shop supplies for any repair that truly did consume incidentals that fall into that category but do have a problem when a repair bill has this as a line item when in no stretch of the imagination were such supplies needed. I then consider it unnecessary bill padding. I remember a friend telling me once he was present when an irrigation service call was made to one of his pivots and the tech used a "squirt" of electric contact cleaner that later showed up itemized on his bill at the price of several cans, needless to say he was not impressed. As was pointed out earlier, somebody has to pay for this stuff but nobody likes being gouged.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
454
Posted 1/4/2016 20:26 (#5011223 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: whats the hourly shop rate?


reason why I ask. $1000 repair and nearly half of it was labor (not surprising, that's what I always figured if you were taking it to the box store). I am also going to assume that you billed the parts out at counter price which is at least 2X (Ive seen the computer screen, I know what parts cost vs what they are sold for).

between the screwing on parts and gouging on the labor, I think you could throw in a can of WD-40 and some stupid shop towels.

instead you nickel and dime it to death and probably charged 2X for the WD-40 and shop towels.

not to mention, unless they are one of the lucky dealerships, the mechanics working on something take a smoke break every half hour and most don't know squat about what they are working on so they spend half their time reading the stupid manual and smoking instead of turning a wrench

our first farm shop paid for itself so quick, I put up another one this past year. there's a reason your customer was unhappy and hes not the only one.


Edited by 454 1/4/2016 20:30
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 20:33 (#5011256 - in reply to #5011223)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


Tuscola, IL
Labor rate is $88/hr. Low compared to what I have seen.

The parts were billed at list price. None stuck out as outrageous, but I didn't compare the list of each part to the cost.

Interestingly enough, I performed the work myself as we had 3 techs tied up on another job and it was requested by the customer to be picked up and delivered on the same day because he couldn't be without it for multiple days.

We take a 15 minute break at 9am and at 3pm. I did consult the manual, which took about 15 minutes from the time I walked away from the job until the time I came back. I have been doing this for 10 years and will absolutely not apologize, or adjust a bill, for the time taken to consult a manual. That is why we eat the labor when we make a mistake. I would rather charge the customer 15 minutes for looking something up than eat an hour to redo a job.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
454
Posted 1/4/2016 20:47 (#5011300 - in reply to #5011256)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


I commend you as you seem to be a decent outfit

but reality is, your are still charging a premium on shop labor even if it is lower and mechanics are experienced, and there is a good margin on the parts too

shop supplies shouldn't be tacked on

its kind of like going out to a nice steak house and ordering a $50 steak from the menu, and then getting the bill and seeing they billed you for two napkins, a fork, a knife, and a plate. (and in some cases steak sauce too, which is a double whammy cause a $50 steak shouldn't need steak sauce).
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 20:57 (#5011327 - in reply to #5011300)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


Tuscola, IL
Ha I like the steak sauce analogy. I may use that tomorrow when we're discussing this issue.

All I want is to be fair. I don't want a customer being billed for something he didn't receive. But, I don't want to be eating a bunch of expenses either.

From what I'm gathering is that it's not necessarily an issue with paying for the items, but seeing them brought out in a separate line item on a bill. Maybe including it in the labor rate is the simplest, trouble free way of doing it. I need to study up more on how our labor rate is calculated. I suspect that our rate has more to do with the neighboring dealerships than what pencils out for us.

Thanks for all the input guys. I'm not saying I have any authority to change it. It's done at a corporate level for our dealership. But, I want to be able to argue both sides of the case when or if I'm asked for input.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
jcfarmboy
Posted 1/4/2016 21:41 (#5011493 - in reply to #5011327)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?



South Western Ontario, Canada
CASE3594 - 1/4/2016 21:57

Ha I like the steak sauce analogy. I may use that tomorrow when we're discussing this issue.

All I want is to be fair. I don't want a customer being billed for something he didn't receive. But, I don't want to be eating a bunch of expenses either.








IF you actually USED shop supplies than YES add it to the bill.
What gets my goat is getting charged for "shop supplies" for computer diagnostics!!!!! Specially after the "travel time charge" and the "laptop usage fee" then you add on shop supplies and NOTHING IS USED.......that's when "it" hits the fan for me (yes I have worked for many of years in the shops). I don't really agree with the laptop fee but it is required shop tool so I normally grumble to myself and pay.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
JDEEREMAN
Posted 1/6/2016 00:08 (#5014680 - in reply to #5011327)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


Eastern ND
One thing I learned at a corporate store, was they have X amount of sq ft of shop, and each sq ft needs to earn X amount of $$$. The corp bean counter sets the value. Then the store Mgr needs to get that amount, with whatever charges He can.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
drk
Posted 1/4/2016 20:59 (#5011341 - in reply to #5011300)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


IA
So you tip the mechanic for good service too like you would tip the waiter? I doubt it. Not the same thing.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
454
Posted 1/4/2016 21:26 (#5011441 - in reply to #5011341)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


drk - 1/4/2016 20:59

So you tip the mechanic for good service too like you would tip the waiter? I doubt it. Not the same thing.


tip is not required. and yes I have chosen to leave a big fat zero before because of horrible service. I also don't eat at places that automatically add it.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Big Ben
Posted 1/4/2016 21:06 (#5011369 - in reply to #5011256)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


Columbia Basin, Ephrata, WA
I have yet to meet a shop tech that makes $88 per hour. I don't see why things that aren't even valuable enough to account for can't be rolled in to that rate difference.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
johnypop
Posted 1/4/2016 21:57 (#5011544 - in reply to #5011256)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


ND
CASE3594 - 1/4/2016 08:33

Labor rate is $88/hr. Low compared to what I have seen.

The parts were billed at list price. None stuck out as outrageous, but I didn't compare the list of each part to the cost.

Interestingly enough, I performed the work myself as we had 3 techs tied up on another job and it was requested by the customer to be picked up and delivered on the same day because he couldn't be without it for multiple days.

We take a 15 minute break at 9am and at 3pm. I did consult the manual, which took about 15 minutes from the time I walked away from the job until the time I came back. I have been doing this for 10 years and will absolutely not apologize, or adjust a bill, for the time taken to consult a manual. That is why we eat the labor when we make a mistake. I would rather charge the customer 15 minutes for looking something up than eat an hour to redo a job.


$88/hr is cheap, 4020 rates, need to bump it up.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
man of steel
Posted 1/4/2016 22:07 (#5011576 - in reply to #5011256)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?



MI

CASE3594 - 1/4/2016 20:33 I did consult the manual, which took about 15 minutes from the time I walked away from the job until the time I came back. I have been doing this for 10 years and will absolutely not apologize, or adjust a bill, for the time taken to consult a manual. That is why we eat the labor when we make a mistake. I would rather charge the customer 15 minutes for looking something up than eat an hour to redo a job.

One thing I, as a customer, don't like is paying for training. If a tech is taking time to look at a manual because he doesn't know how to do the job, I have a problem with that.

Torque specs and such are a different story. I surely don't expect all that to be in their head

Top of the page Bottom of the page
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 22:19 (#5011602 - in reply to #5011576)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


Tuscola, IL
I totally agree. A tech that has graduated from lawn mowers and pressure washing should have the aptitude to do a lot of things without looking at a book. But, keep the training of today in perspective. Most of the classroom and hands on training at the factory level today is troubleshooting. Looking at schematics and flow charts and seeing break downs of components. The book comes in handy for jobs that maybe you can do without removing the cab, even though it doesn't look like it's possible. Or you need to split between the range and speed sections and not at the engine to access the internal component you need. This comes with experience because the second time you do the job, you won't need the book. I can do a clutch on a 1486 without even thinking about a book. But, ask me to remove the odd/even clutch pack in a Magnum 310 and I'm going to spend some time getting to know the book.

But I absolutely see what you're saying. If a tech pulls out an electrical schematic to troubleshoot a burnt out light bulb, that's not helping anyone out either.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
milofarmer1
Posted 1/5/2016 10:03 (#5012390 - in reply to #5011576)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?



Texas/New Mexico Stateline
man of steel - 1/4/2016 21:07

One thing I, as a customer, don't like is paying for training. If a tech is taking time to look at a manual because he doesn't know how to do the job, I have a problem with that.


I think that is unfair. There is no way a tech can keep all that information about every model they work on in their head. And with models and designs multiplying every year, I have no problem with a tech spending 15 or even 30 minutes looking at a manual. I'd rather them do that and do the job properly than just dive right in and "wing it".



Top of the page Bottom of the page
man of steel
Posted 1/5/2016 18:43 (#5013603 - in reply to #5012390)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?



MI

"Because he doesn't know how" were the key words.

I'm pretty confident that, with a manual and the proper tools available to me,  I could rebuild a powershift transmission. But that doesn't mean I know how.

The first time I rebuilt an engine, I didn't know how. Took me a long time and a lot of questions.

In other words, if I'm having troubles with my Deere Power Quad transmission, don't send out a tech that's never worked on one. Yes! I see it happen.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
hibernian
Posted 1/5/2016 19:30 (#5013760 - in reply to #5013603)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


Northeast Maine/Southern New Hampshire.
First you need to raise your rate, next provide the best, fastest service for your best customers.

The rest need to swim with the fish.

I do field service on the road, every day, since 1998.

I Have Found That When I charged 75 Some complained,
when I charged 100, the same some complained, at 125 the complainers are left behind.

I won't even do.service for them anymore, even though I still.talk to them.

I even had one customer who doubled my own rate because I fixed a machine quickly enabling then to send a part to the UK in order to meet their deadline.

If your are good at what you do and look after the good customer.
They will recognize your value and not be bothering you about 22 dollars.

A good man has to be paid, and is worth extra.

I don't nickel and dime my me car/van/truck shop.
They are worth every penny.

Fix up everything as fast as they can.
And unscrew their screwups no hassle.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
caseihfarmer
Posted 1/5/2016 09:33 (#5012321 - in reply to #5011256)
Subject: RE: whats the hourly shop rate?


East Central, Nebraska
you seem like a good honest repairman, you should not have to explain anything. unfortunately their are some shops that are not like that. i know a deere shop that i love to take things to because i know i will never question what they do. then i know another one that you have to constantly watch your back at.

your not the problem. once again you seem too cheap and too honest. the world needs the in between of you and the others.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
paul the original
Posted 1/4/2016 20:26 (#5011226 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


southern MN
I liked it better when it was hidden in the labor rate, which has no relation to what the mechanic actually gets per hour. That already has padding in it for the tools and service truck and electricity and what normally was general shop consumables as you mention.

But, extra fees are a way to get more out of a customer, everyone is doing it, so you might as well too.

Wish I could put a hauling fee and a storage fee and an excess weed fee on the grocery shelf items of my soy and corn and oats that are sold there, but I'm already a rich farmer that only works 3 months a year so I shall not be able to partake in such extras.

Paul
Top of the page Bottom of the page
stangexprs
Posted 1/4/2016 20:46 (#5011296 - in reply to #5011226)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Davenport Washington
We all are in business and we don't get to add a can of wd or some shop rags to the price of commodities we absorb that as cost of doing business, so should the dealer. They also make markup in parts and charge plenty for labor which covers their cost of doing business. We are customers not their cash cow.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Diesel Dan
Posted 1/4/2016 21:11 (#5011387 - in reply to #5011226)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Near Lansing, MI
paul the original - 1/4/2016 21:26

I liked it better when it was hidden in the labor rate, which has no relation to what the mechanic actually gets per hour. That already has padding in it for the tools and service truck and electricity and what normally was general shop consumables as you mention.

But, extra fees are a way to get more out of a customer, everyone is doing it, so you might as well too.

Wish I could put a hauling fee and a storage fee and an excess weed fee on the grocery shelf items of my soy and corn and oats that are sold there, but I'm already a rich farmer that only works 3 months a year so I shall not be able to partake in such extras.

Paul


Hahahahahaha!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
drj4840
Posted 1/4/2016 20:32 (#5011244 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



fullerton nebraska
i charge for shop supplies, no complaints here. misc iron charge on welding repair jobs sometimes other wise just hourly rate, pry get flamed for this but if a guy doesnt like it they can fix their own stuff! john deere tickets sure as heck have misc shop supplies on them.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
WillB
Posted 1/4/2016 20:35 (#5011261 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Ontario Canada
The customer is nitpicking over shop supplies? Id encourage that customer to look at opening his own shop, buy tools & shop equipment, then factor in overhead to his monthly expenses.

I don't begrudge shop supplies being added to the bill, I'd rather it be itemized than buried.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
WTW
Posted 1/4/2016 20:40 (#5011275 - in reply to #5011261)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Winkler, Manitoba Canada
WillB - 1/4/2016 19:35

I don't begrudge shop supplies being added to the bill, I'd rather it be itemized than buried.


The fact is that shop supplies is not itemized. It is simply a percentage that is tacked onto the bill, ostensibly for shop supplies. Shop rate should cover it. If large item it should be listed as parts.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
redblooded
Posted 1/4/2016 21:18 (#5011411 - in reply to #5011275)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Shelburne Ontario Canada
I guess as a mechanic i blast at any that Get peed off because they come in shop an find me reading an article i found wen i googled how to shim a forward hydraulic clutch on a 685 cause the intructions i found in book are vauge . Or i am on phone with a guy i have known all my life asking question if he knows anything special about wat i workin at . If i screw up an customer finds out all i would have had to do is ask some one else they are just as mad or worse. With new models every 2-5 yrs since 1975 how can some one know everything . Shop manuals are extremely needed . Put one seal in with grease on it that needs installed dry u soon wish u would have read a book ten minutes more!! As far as shop supplys if u had a tranny explosion and u wash trans out with a can and a half of varsol or 2gal deisel fuel bill it! If i do wiring say fix light connections and i use a hand full of butt connects an shrink tube and such i bill as electro connects and such need for light redo. If i use one quick crimp electric connect to fix altenator wire while doin oil change it likely wont show on bill. Same with parts cleaner u clean new filters with to write on the engine hrs. The odd time if there was quite a bit of little stuff , wee bit silicone here , 1/4can parts kleene, 10squirts lube spray, 5/16 nut for a loose bolt, stuff thats not worth adding as parts i throw an extra hr on . My parts markup ,labour rate as a one man show, are to make payments on my house , my truck, my shop, and also my tools . So it very hard to soak up all cleaners , silicone, and stuff that really adds up at 15bucks a can
And the tractor that always come out of fuel wen it needs some time on dyno and u get extremely cursed out wen u bill 5gal of fuel cause u were using it not him.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
drk
Posted 1/4/2016 20:43 (#5011285 - in reply to #5011261)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


IA
Bingo. I'd tell him that's what the bill is like it or not. Pay it. Next time he can take it somewhere else or work on it himself. Wd40 paper towels and zip ties don't just appear out of thin air. If you want it itemized then that takes more time and...... More money to pay someone to itemize it.

Edited by drk 1/4/2016 20:45
Top of the page Bottom of the page
farmerboy11
Posted 1/4/2016 20:44 (#5011288 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Lancaster, Pa
If you were to add it to the labor rate you would complain about that. It is a part of doing business if you don't like it open you're own shop and do you're own work. I do it on my bills for my shop work I do equipment repair on the side. If you were to let those little things slid you would be surprised what they add up to at the end of the month.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Tiredoffarming
Posted 1/4/2016 20:51 (#5011312 - in reply to #5011288)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Pay it or fix it yourself.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
8320farmer
Posted 1/4/2016 20:59 (#5011338 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


East central Indiana
Well this won't sit well but it's my opinion.

You didn't specify what you did but sounds like you did a job that took some level of skill. I see no issue with the bill.

Most guys here have never worked for anyone as a contractor or custom operator. I take an issue with all the complaining because how am I suppose to recover all my cost without some itemization. The building cost, heat ac,truck cost insurance, etc. That stuff is in the cost of labor.

The electrical parts, torch gas, welding wire all needs to be paid some how. You don't use that stuff on every job so jacking labor just means your gouging everyone to pay for stuff for just a few guys.

Also not every dealer sells parts at 200% of cost. I've got family in parts. I know what there cut is its no where near what you think. Now there no mega dealer or a deere dealer but they turn lots of parts through there and do lots of service work.

I know some of you have been on the other side of the computer. But still business cost money to run and the customer needs to pay there part.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 21:03 (#5011354 - in reply to #5011338)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Tuscola, IL
Good point. A customer with a transmission overhaul is going to use up a lot more shop supplies than someone having their engine oil changed. If adding it to the shop rate, it's not as fair to the person who's job didn't take any shop supplies. But on the same hand, a person who didn't require any shop supplies still ends up getting charged using the percentage.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Kooiker
Posted 1/4/2016 21:22 (#5011427 - in reply to #5011354)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



CASE3594 - 1/4/2016 21:03  But on the same hand, a person who didn't require any shop supplies still ends up getting charged using the percentage.




The way I see it is that this "shop supplies" charge got started by someone that wanted to increase their shop rate without increasing the "shop rate".    

So they picked the % that they wanted to raise the "shop rate" and charged that much for "supplies", wa-la increased shop rate without increasing the "shop rate".


Once one shop did it everyone thought it was a good idea and now its a universal rip off.



How long before there's a charge on the bill for "electric", "insurance" or "education"   ???   

If it can't be billed out individually for the job it doesn't belong on the bill.    


 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
farmerbk
Posted 1/4/2016 21:26 (#5011440 - in reply to #5011354)
Subject: what you find the breakdown will be interesting


Seymour, IL
Josh
I realize you do not have any control over the posted rate, but some of us remember when it was broken down by percentage.
I remember when it was broken roughly 1/3, 1/3, 1/3
The take was split between the technician, the shop, and the dealership; plus parts and markup

then the rate was changed to 25, 25. 25. and 25...but I never understood where the other 25% went to...was there a charge to cover for parts, management, or something else

I have no idea how the rate splits now, but it seems relevant as 'disposable supplies' such as you mention should be able to be covered out of overhead. If it is a big enough to document use (to use your transmission example) then it is big enough to bill. Would you be willing to let a customer carry in their own disposables to avoid this charge? If it bothers them enough, would this not be a way to deal with it?

I get the overhead it costs to run a business. All of us are in that boat. Break out what the real charges are, and maybe it is easier for all to accept. For example, I have looked at numerous building contractor quotes, and they clearly list their 10/10 for the overhead and profit.

Hope this helps
Bryon
Top of the page Bottom of the page
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 22:11 (#5011592 - in reply to #5011440)
Subject: RE: what you find the breakdown will be interesting


Tuscola, IL
Absolutely, Bryon. Thanks for the feedback.

I think it's been a long time coming, but with pennies being pinched all around, I think dealers really need to start putting pencil to paper and seeing what the labor rate actually covers. Same for parts markup. Are we charging enough on labor to cover shop supplies? Or are we barely covering salaries? I think it started out being an actual number that had some relevance, like you show with the 1/3,1/3,1/3. But, I think anymore it's just an arbitrary number that reflects the competition in the area.

If we could justify lowering our labor rate because we have the shop supply charge, or justify raising labor rate and not having a shop supply charge, I think we could show the customer exactly what he's getting. I think this is going to be more of an important issue over the next several months as dealers look to the parts and service departments to keep the doors open while sales lag behind.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
TORQUE
Posted 1/4/2016 21:05 (#5011363 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


SC Iowa
I realize you have very little authority when it comes to something management decided (shop supplies billing) so you must play the game by their rules. The only thing the shop supplies charge on a ticket does is irritate customers, never understood why a few rags, a little carb cleaner, WD40 etc could not be paid for the same as the 100 other shop overhead expenses that are not itemized yet they get paid for by the hourly charge. If the shop feels the customer is receiving something they are not paying for, it would be far better to rase the shop rate $1 per hour to cover it.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
jj4910
Posted 1/4/2016 21:17 (#5011408 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


SE Wyoming
I worked at a dealership for many many years. The shop supplies thing came up many times while I was there. It was always 2% of the total bill, with a one hundred dollar maximum.

It boiled down to an internal accounting necessity. The shop gets billed for the supplies from the parts department. Each needs to maintain their 30% margin so they are sold at full list from one department to the other. It's hard to eat the price of those supplies, (especially on small jobs), so a surcharge was added to cover such incidentals. That way each department could hopefully cover their margins easier. I have my own shop now and I still bill out for shop supplies. I wouldn't turn a customer away for 20 dollars, but the labor bill might be a quarter hour higher next time. Just sayin. ;-)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
PETERSON PERFORMANCE
Posted 1/4/2016 21:37 (#5011483 - in reply to #5011408)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



SESD
1.5% - 3% of total bill is shop supplies when I do my billing. Never ,never had anyone complain about that. With that being said I only charge $35 per hour so they had better not complain because they van take it to local dealer and spend $90-$120 per hour and then pay them 3%-7% for shop supplies. Anyone that is saying that its absurd to charge for shop supplies has apparently never ran a shop. Say a guy wants a wheels bearings changed on a wagon. . . are you supposed to donate several tubes of grease to this guy just because? Heck no its called shop supplies! Gasket goop, grease, zerks,bolts,nuts,washers,electrical products, Teflon tape, shop rags, WD 40, Brake cleaner, parts washer solvent, floor dry, I could go on forever here. . . IS NOT FREE. Why should I have to pay for all that stuff and not the customer? I generally feel like it doesn't all get paid for anyways but shop supplies helps to cover some of it. End of story.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
dt4020
Posted 1/4/2016 21:52 (#5011529 - in reply to #5011483)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Fairbury, NE (Southeast)
With that pricing structure it makes more sense to charge for everything. You probably need to be over 50 realistically. I think the contention comes from the dealers charging 100+....ought to be a bit of slush in there for 50 cents of panther piss and wipes.

Edited by dt4020 1/4/2016 21:54
Top of the page Bottom of the page
trapperjon
Posted 1/5/2016 07:51 (#5012080 - in reply to #5011483)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


east central iowa
Peterson if your shop rate is 35 then u should charge for shop supplies! but if your rate was 120 maybe not. apples and oranges
Top of the page Bottom of the page
PETERSON PERFORMANCE
Posted 1/5/2016 08:25 (#5012166 - in reply to #5012080)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



SESD
trapperjon - 1/5/2016 07:51

Peterson if your shop rate is 35 then u should charge for shop supplies! but if your rate was 120 maybe not. apples and oranges


X2 Thank you! After reding this I guess I must be way to cheap tho. . . . Had been thinking of going up but why? I make a decent living at it now and am always busy and customers are happy.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
twraska
Posted 1/5/2016 09:17 (#5012291 - in reply to #5012166)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Wallis, TX

Son and a couple of his buddies are in the $50-65 per hour range.  They all add a modest 'shop supply' charge and charge something for running to get parts.  It is a lot different when the labor rate is $100.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
4WD
Posted 1/4/2016 21:21 (#5011422 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Between Omaha and Des Moines, 7 miles South of I80

My old company charged 2%, for shop supplies; and during the semi-annual employee meetings, the vice-president and managers still said they were slightly loosing money in that account.

It seemed hard to believe (the 2%), but then you start looking at where some of that money goes, like restocking bolt bin with bolts, washers, nuts, lockwashers, etc. (only to be used when you only needed one or two bolts(for a job) = if more was needed, it need to be itemized, on that invoice.) Other items, like having the wash bay sump cleaned, and the environmental hazardous waste cost to dispose of it. Soap for steam-cleaner and mop bucket to clean shop floor{after each job}, Lightbulbs, for trouble-lights, fuses, cheap electric connectors, welding rods, gases, tips, shop towels, and the list goes on and on.

 

In this particular case, maybe you should just itemized the actual electrical connectors and heat shrink, then ADD about 5 or 8 minutes, of shop time @ $1.46 per minute, for the additional time it cost (during an actual job) to do the paperwork and wait for a "parts dept. or parts warehouse personnel", to get these small items (more wasted time at $88/Hr), just for these little items, to be invoiced.{thus customer wouldn't see the $22 of shop supplies, BUT sees more dollars, in both labor and parts}

My old foreman, 15 years ago, was pretty good at explaining these "costs" to customers, BUT it sure took time out of his day, to constantly educate customers about shop supplies cost and what ALL it encompasses.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Ironbender
Posted 1/4/2016 21:24 (#5011431 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


northwest Iowa
I've run a shop for 36 years and have never added a charge for shop supplies because it ticks off customers. (Me included) I have several million dollars invested in facilities and equipment and don't charge extra for it, and it irritates me when a one man shop with less than $100,000 invested works on my truck and charges twice as much per hour as I do and then has to add a percentage on the bottom of the ticket. I don't argue about it but I do what I can to not go there very often. I think most guys are the same way. I've always said it's the little things that makes you lose customers, not the big ones. We don't run a time clock on a job so if we use a lot of torch gas or stand there and weld the whole time I just add 15 minutes onto the labor and nobody seems to care. Phil
Top of the page Bottom of the page
oldbones
Posted 1/5/2016 12:50 (#5012812 - in reply to #5011431)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Floyd County, Iowa
Ironbender-

You say you "never add a charge for shop supplies", but then you say you "just add 15 minutes onto the labor".
I'm not arguing or disputing, but why is one different than the other when it still adds to the total on the bottom of the invoice?
And I don't see what relevance it makes as to how much the other shop has invested vs what he charges. That would be like saying that someone who has a small line of older, well maintained machinery running on land that he bought 40 years ago should take less $ per bushel of corn because he doesn't have as much invested as the guy that has all new equipment on his $10,000/acre land.
Like I said, not trying to start an argument, just trying to see the logic.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Ironbender
Posted 1/5/2016 16:20 (#5013246 - in reply to #5012812)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


northwest Iowa
I never said I give the stuff away, I just don't put it on the bottom of the bill and make the guy mad. I have to charge a little more for a lot of welding because I can burn up a lot of wire in an hour. If I use a tube of grease I charge for it and mark it up a little just like any other parts, but I can't really tell how much wire or gas I used on a job so I just take a guess and add a little time to cover it. I don't add for cotter keys or WD 40 but if I use a bolt I put it on the bill.
As far as what the other guy has invested I guess that doesn't really matter, but if he figures his time is worth double what my time is and then adds a surcharge at the bottom of the bill it irks me. I don't have to go back. I had a forklift that was running rough so I took it to the dealer I bought it from and they did a tuneup on it. The bill was $2900 and then they had to add a percentage for shop supplies. For a tuneup!! I don't see any reason to go back there either. Maybe I'm just getting old. Thanks, Phil
Top of the page Bottom of the page
730diesel
Posted 1/5/2016 21:19 (#5014272 - in reply to #5012812)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


NE ND
I'll jump in quick. I don't mind a small charge 10-30 bucks depending on the size and type of job. I was really burnt 3-4 years ago and still have a very sour taste in my mouth when an independent truck repair shop replaced 6 injectors and an air compressor on my M11 Cummins in an IH 8100. I was swamped and didn't have time. I kid you not, the bill was about $7500 which contained $450 in SHOP SUPPLIES! I about fell over. On top of this was a charge for two cans of brake cleaner at $8 each. I can buy cans all day at Menards for $2.50. I called to ask if the two cans of brake cleaner could be moved into the friggin $450 worth of shop supplies. They would not budge for $16 on a $7500 repair bill. Needless to say, I will never go back. Their parts dept is very good, fair, and helpful but I will buy a different truck before they will ever fix another one for me. Edit - I felt like $450 in shop supplies was highway robbery.

Edited by 730diesel 1/5/2016 21:23
Top of the page Bottom of the page
south
Posted 1/5/2016 20:31 (#5014042 - in reply to #5011431)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Louisiana
Great post--Wish some of the shops in our area used you as a consultant. These new charges are bordering on theft, and ticked off is putting it mildly.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
jd4650
Posted 1/4/2016 21:30 (#5011459 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


waupun,wi
Where I work,if I get a can of something it goes on the ticket.whatever is a consumable part is billed.tack on labor,shop supplies,environmental charge and that's what it is.yes you sometimes have a few whiners but not very often. So to you guys that complain what about when I'm asked to set parameters or just plug into this and read fault codes(I'm a truck tech) but customer is never charged.if I'm working and customer is waiting I don't take breaks or lunch and I don't smoke.yes some of us bust our behind just to have some complain about it. Edit to add I have had good customers tip me and I say no you already paid for it.guess what I've walked away and had money laying on my toolbox after customer left.so some whine but most understand it's a way of business and running a shop is not cheap.when I'm busy planting or harvesting I have had a few times I've called mother deere to make a service call for me while I'm at work and I never have complained about the misc charges I see.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
IADAVE
Posted 1/4/2016 21:31 (#5011463 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Your situation is common. I don't like it but I figure the shop is going to get that revenue one way or the other. Either higher hourly rate or pad the hours, whatever. The one that smokes me is when you get billed 6 hours for a repair that takes me 45 minute. Then when you look closer they bill a shop supplies and environmental charge of over $100. Then they bill separately for brake clean, shop rags and zip ties.. Actually had this happen. I had a wheel seal out on a semi. The environmental and shop supplies charge was more than the new shoes and seal. They also charged me for 9 cans of break clean and 7 gals of synthetic 75-80. It was the back rear end and probably only a couple quarts low.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
johnypop
Posted 1/4/2016 21:53 (#5011531 - in reply to #5011463)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


ND
IADAVE - 1/4/2016 09:31

Your situation is common. I don't like it but I figure the shop is going to get that revenue one way or the other. Either higher hourly rate or pad the hours, whatever. The one that smokes me is when you get billed 6 hours for a repair that takes me 45 minute. Then when you look closer they bill a shop supplies and environmental charge of over $100. Then they bill separately for brake clean, shop rags and zip ties.. Actually had this happen. I had a wheel seal out on a semi. The environmental and shop supplies charge was more than the new shoes and seal. They also charged me for 9 cans of break clean and 7 gals of synthetic 75-80. It was the back rear end and probably only a couple quarts low.


You should probably do the job yourself if it only takes you 45 minutes, then you wouldn't have to gripe on here.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
IADAVE
Posted 1/4/2016 21:58 (#5011549 - in reply to #5011531)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


I actually did. I was in Davenport Ia when the wheel seal went out. Just a few miles from the dealer ship. I had a load of expensive freight on the flat bed and didn't want to get it oily. Not to mention the fact that it is illegal to run with a leaking brake seal. When I got home 3oo miles later I got to do it all over again as it was leaking again.
Incidentally I was billed from the time of my first phone call to them to 1/2 hour after I had paid my bill. They did knock off the 1/2 hour.
My point is if you have a shop that is trying to rip you off they will find a way to do it.

Edited by IADAVE 1/4/2016 22:00
Top of the page Bottom of the page
oldbones
Posted 1/4/2016 21:32 (#5011464 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Floyd County, Iowa
I don't mind paying for shop supplies.
I know what it means, and understand why you charge for it. BTDT.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mnfarmer
Posted 1/4/2016 21:59 (#5011553 - in reply to #5011464)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


getting billed for shop supplies doesn't bother me to much when you are actually fixing something. But when you come out and update my nav controller or a monitor and I get charged shop supplies and a computer hook up fee that I don't believe in.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mike,ohio
Posted 1/4/2016 21:42 (#5011497 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


ohio
No need for a separate charge,just add it to the repair,then they won't complain.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
IADAVE
Posted 1/4/2016 21:53 (#5011535 - in reply to #5011497)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


I was just thinking about working in our own shop. We probably get 50 hours a month or a little better in the truck shop. It seems to take about $50 or so to buy shop towels soap etc. I know it makes a BIG difference if the guy working in there is the one buying the shop supplies! If a guy had all hired help he could easily use a couple hundred for the same labor hours. For welding and cutting I think the most fair way to charge is use a higher labor rate for the time you are doing that.
welding you could charge for the electrodes I guess. As far as using the computer I have a problem paying for labor to set it up, a hook up fee and then a computer fee. It looks to me like part of the labor and hook up fee are duplicating the same charge. Charging me a computer fee is like charging me extra for using an impact wrench. On the other hand if you are $50 on a repair that takes an hour you can figure it any way you want. If you charge $600 for the same repair it doesn't matter how you figure it. You are ripping me off!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
oldiowa
Posted 1/4/2016 21:57 (#5011546 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: piece work per mechanic


waterloo iowa
I think part of this is caused by car dealers that went to paying so much per routine job to their mechanics. They cut the mechanics cut by timing the job too tight,,then when they wanted more profit from the shop they started charging for supplies.

There are times in big business when a mid level manager is offered a big promotion if he can increase profits by a few percent,, I had a job once where you had to sign for supplies you used, the supply room was at the far end of the building so when I got my stuff I picked up what the guys I worked with needed,top management called me out for using too much Loctite,,I tried to explain that we all used the same bottle,but we ended up taking turns to get supplies after that. ,
Top of the page Bottom of the page
sbosmt
Posted 1/4/2016 21:57 (#5011548 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


SW Montana
On a separate but similar situation what gets me is when we have a mechanic out to repair our dairy equipment, say our milk compressors and we get charged rental for a little a/c vacuum pump the company owns. How can you charge a trip charge, high hourly rate and tool rental?!!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
headerpuncher
Posted 1/4/2016 22:26 (#5011615 - in reply to #5011548)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Ea. Washington
Sounds like the story about the salesman who had an expense account. One week he lost his hat so on the expense account he listed "lost my hat "10.00

They of course wouldn't pay it and said," that's a personal expense and we won't pay it. Next week he put it in again. Same response. The next week it wasn't on there and they asked him, how come you didn't list the hat? His response was,

" THE HATS IN THERE, SEE IF YOU CAN FIND IT."


Top of the page Bottom of the page
CASE3594
Posted 1/4/2016 21:58 (#5011550 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Tuscola, IL
Thanks for all of the replies, guys. I got exactly what I had hoped for and that is conversation from both sides of the service desk. My whole reason for asking is because I recognize that my number 1 job is to make the customer happy. But, closely behind is the number 2 job of making the shop money. Typically if job 1 happens, job 2 happens automatically. I'm still very new to this service manager thing. I'm learning as I go. This particular call showed me that I have learned a valuable lesson that has gone a long way...keep my mouth shut. Seems that can only make a situation worse. For the most part, we have some absolutely terrific customers. Most are so easy going that they won't speak up about the $22 shop supply charge. But, this particular customer did ask about it and balked at paying it. That's why I wanted to open the discussion. Maybe I have several other customers that get in the truck and complain about it but don't want to rock the boat in the store. Like I said above, I have little power to change it. But, I feel like I have a good understanding of both sides of the argument now and maybe my input will be asked for down the line.

Thanks for the opinions!!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
doggone
Posted 1/4/2016 22:14 (#5011596 - in reply to #5011550)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


south central MN
Having run a machine shop for 30 years and farm I can see both sides. My thought in my shop was if the average rebuild took 2 cans of break clean and a roll of shop towels that would be included in the labor cost if using flat rate type pricing. If a job was being done by time and material then all materials like shop supplies along with parts and labor would be itemized. The things that make me wonder what a business was thinks is if you took something in for an oil change at xxx dollars and then be charged for oil disposal and oil filter disposal. Since the disposal is always part of the job.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
loadstar
Posted 1/4/2016 22:35 (#5011635 - in reply to #5011550)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Southeast Iowa
#
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Lizton farmer
Posted 1/4/2016 22:11 (#5011591 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



lizton IN
So the guy wants it done fast. And you pull it off. Now he is complaining about Shop supplies! You can never keep track of everything. So after reading a lot of this I would say charge the shop supply rate of ?% and add it to the labor charge. I never minded seeing a shop supplies charge. I have worked in a shop and I don't want to keep track of every nut bolt and electoral end I use. That would eat into my time getting the job done and would cost the customer more money in the long run. Some people you just need to put the total cost on the paper and nothing more. You can't make everyone happy.

Keith
Top of the page Bottom of the page
gene_champ
Posted 1/4/2016 22:31 (#5011628 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


NC Iowa

it is just a made up charge. do you really think you used $22 worth of supplies. i see it as a way for shops extract a little more. if it took 10 cans of brake kleen, you would bill that extra anyway, and still charge for shop supplies.
do you have a toilet paper charge, in case you have to use the bathroom during the job, or is that included in shop supplies?

many shops want all the paying customers they can get. if you need more money, figure it into the time, not some made up supply charge that stands out like a sore thumb. that will makes a guy look for another shop. customers want a sense of getting what they pay for. bill size may have no relationship to the supplies actually used.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
TD15
Posted 1/4/2016 22:38 (#5011642 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Back when I worked at the JD dealer in the 80's -90's I ended up working on a lawyers tractor that he was going to farm with and he had a horrendous bill for the era and thought the bill was to high. So I was called in the office and our owner wanted me to explain the bill and what was done. So I went line by line with the labor and parts and by the time I was a 3rd done he said that was enough. He got it that the repairs was every bit detailed as the bill was. Sometimes you just have to explain it so they understand just how much labor and parts and incidentals it takes to make the repair.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
diemfarms
Posted 1/4/2016 22:45 (#5011658 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Mifflintown, PA
Basically it comes down to covering items that either by method of tracking, or level of value would cost more to itemize then cover at a flat rate related to other metrics, but are not clearly linked to any one metric as they are unequally distrubuted to all work.

If shop supplies rate is a fixed % of parts $, labor, or other rates or combinations of them then my preference would be to see it rolled into those items individually at those respective rates. That eliminates the feeling of getting nickled and dimed, especially as there will be jobs that require little supplies but charge the fixed % amount.

However, this might cause your rate to not directly compete with someone that pulls it out as a seperate line item, muddying the water of who provides the best overall rate.

Good question, fair amount of thoughtful replies.

In the steakhouse analogy, lets instead focus on the 'free' rolls or soda refills. Items of higher variable consumption but covered elsewhere or billed at an average. When do they cut a table off from refills. How many bread refills until other customers feel that they are overpaying their bills to subsidize the imbalance? Is an average soda price generally accepted because the relativity of total bill to soda prices?

The napkins utensils are easy to account in overhead as they have a nearly fixed ratio linked to other metrics, people, seats, (steak knives:steaks ~1:1).
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Larry in AB
Posted 1/4/2016 23:31 (#5011727 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Alberta, Canada
Yes this always comes up, I've been on both sides of the fence on this. I worked as tech and years back we had a tractor in for an engine job. When they did the engine job on the old CASE there was a lot of labor so the shop supply % was a quite high like over a few hundred bucks. But then they also charged for every little nut, bolt, brake clean, etc. as well.

Some shops I worked in charged so many shop supply units per the dollar amount of bill and there was no charges for brake fluid or anything. Then another place I worked at had no shop supply fee but the parts department would charge out a can of brake clean, tube of silicon, nut, bolt etc. per job.

I agree with others probably best to just add on a bit more labor if a job uses a lot more supplies then normal. $88hr labor would be very cheap "here" but then everywhere is a little different.

I don't know do welders charge for rod, oxy/acetylene and so forth or just their labor rate with that stuff figured in.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
GM Guy
Posted 1/4/2016 23:53 (#5011749 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


NW KS/ SC ID
In my personal opinion, you need to charge 90 bucks and hour and make the shop supplies line disappear into the sunset... :)

I too would get a little pissy over a shop supplies line, but that is just me.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
hillfarmer
Posted 1/5/2016 00:04 (#5011754 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



?

I had a guy look at an engine ,3 weeks later
he said it needed 6 injectors at $400 each

11 days later no parts , texted me at 11 am said injectors are $500 each ,

At 12:30 I texted back to cancel the job

he charged me 20% on the $3000 not the $2400 that I had him order

am I responsible for the 20% ,on the extra cost, after waiting 3 weeks on the job ?

TIA
Top of the page Bottom of the page
150 farmer
Posted 1/5/2016 01:08 (#5011778 - in reply to #5011754)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Pontiac, IL.
What it all boils down to is that: 1) NO WAY can you please everyone.
2) Some people will complain about any and EVERYTHING.
3) Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
4) Most complainers have no clue what it takes to run a shop
5) There are crooked people out there-(on both sides) Trying to make/save a DISHONEST buck.
I knew one guy that complained about something on just about any bill here ever got. When, after his complaining, he got a few dollars off his bill, he was happy. This same guy bragged that he would NEVER give a waitress a tip, because the check was already made out, and he may never see that waitress again. But by going back to the same businesses that knew him, some of them added a hidden charge in that would be more than they might take off after he complained.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Fierce Sparrow
Posted 1/5/2016 08:39 (#5012204 - in reply to #5011778)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Francis Creek, Wi.
I've been running my own shop for better than 40 years. Worked at 2 franchised dealers during and immediately after college. Received My NIASE certification in 1975. Dairy farmed with my wife at the same time until 2 years ago when we sold the cows and just cash crop now. Started the shop as a supplement to the dairy farm. Started at $10.00 per hr. Never got over $40.00 per hr. which is where I am now. I'm generally pretty busy with established customers. STRICTLY cash and carry. NO CREDIT! If you can't pay for the job, I'll watch TV instead. I started charging $10.00 misc. shop supplies after about 2 years of business. Any job over a billable hour gets the charge.

Only had one guy complain in all that time. Really gave me h--- for it, but he paid for it. I calmly told him the way I charged and that if he didn't like it to go elsewhere. He did - for 2 repairs. He's back. At my low labor rate, the shop supply expense becomes more critical. There is little to be made in mark-up. Most of my customers understand that we try to deliver good service at a fair price.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Big Ben
Posted 1/5/2016 15:24 (#5013123 - in reply to #5012204)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Columbia Basin, Ephrata, WA
If there was a shop around here that did good work and only charged $40 I'd fully expect them to charge for shop supplies. I'd probably even be ok if they added a small amount as an electric surcharge to keep the lights on, and a little more for heat in the winter.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
kabota19
Posted 1/6/2016 00:02 (#5014677 - in reply to #5012204)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


North Central Idaho
Fierce Sparrow - 1/4/2016 17:39

I've been running my own shop for better than 40 years. Worked at 2 franchised dealers during and immediately after college. Received My NIASE certification in 1975. Dairy farmed with my wife at the same time until 2 years ago when we sold the cows and just cash crop now. Started the shop as a supplement to the dairy farm. Started at $10.00 per hr. Never got over $40.00 per hr. which is where I am now. I'm generally pretty busy with established customers. STRICTLY cash and carry. NO CREDIT! If you can't pay for the job, I'll watch TV instead. I started charging $10.00 misc. shop supplies after about 2 years of business. Any job over a billable hour gets the charge.


Very interesting how you have kept up with inflation relatively close ($10 in '75 > $44 est now)

I have been running my own part time welding/repair/precison Ag shop for about 10 years now and it really has given me a different view to both sides of the argument, as such I really have come to understand the shop supplies charge a lot more. One month we might go thru $50 in supplies and the next it can be closer to $2000, both months having similar billable hours, I try to charge more along the lines of what we use on the project because I don't think that a blanket % is fair all the time.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
simjam
Posted 1/5/2016 04:02 (#5011795 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


North Central OH

Sounds like it would have been excepted better if the labor would have been $472 instead of $450 and left the shop supplies off.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
jasonl
Posted 1/5/2016 05:11 (#5011823 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


midwest

I didn't read all the replies, but I had the tech come to my shop to help with a job and when I got the bill there was a charge for $25 for shop supplies.  Now this was my shop and my supplies he used, he even had to use a couple of my tools out of my toolbox.  

Top of the page Bottom of the page
kswrenchturner05
Posted 1/5/2016 05:44 (#5011842 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Geuda Springs, Kansas
Maybe would be better off scratching they supplies and just billing 1/2 hour more labor o cover it, lol. I don't mind a supply charge of $10 to $20 on thre. But is what really is annoying is when they charge a whole bottle of loc tite of can of penetrating oil to your bill. Does the customer get to keep the extra product? Usually not.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
gd856
Posted 1/5/2016 07:01 (#5011956 - in reply to #5011842)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


owego ny
Standard rate on all are bills for shop suppliers is 25 doesn't take much to eat up 25 dollars when using nuts bolts and welding supplies. At 100.dollars an hour shop rate paying a tech 20 plus dealers have other expenses you all want trained techs but no one wants to pay. Seems farmers cry the worst
Top of the page Bottom of the page
ks8780
Posted 1/5/2016 07:26 (#5012014 - in reply to #5011842)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Jewell County KS
I've had Techs give me the leftover can of whatever or the rest of the roll of shop towels an I appreciated it. He said you are paying for it so you just as well have it.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
trapperjon
Posted 1/5/2016 07:29 (#5012016 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


east central iowa
this is a good topic. first thing to know is a happy satisfied customer will be your best advertiser just as a unsatisfied one is bad for business. so try to keep them happy as best you can. second is I know it cost a small fortune to run a farm as well as a shop and we both need each other. I understand your cost with labor and work comp and health insurance being probably your highest costs. they cost me a lot also. third is shop rates are high and if I chose to hire you it is because u have a skill I don't have or I don't have the time or maybe just cant physically do it. forth I want to be treated like u would want to be treated. fifth I think as shop rates get so high that these supplies should be a cost of doing business. like if your charging $75 per hour or more then you want to charge me for a towel too. that rubs me wrong. sixth. I want a log kept of my repair with date and times of each part of my repair. so if your working on brakes I know how long it takes or your working on injectors we know how long it takes. this money does not grow on trees for either of us and we both need to know these things.im sure your keeping it because your billing me off it. I want to have it in my bill. seventh. not all mechanics are equal. so I don't want to pay top price for a greenhorn that is learning on my tractor. some mechanics are good at looking busy increasing billable hours and others are really fast and accurate in there repairs. so how can u charge the same for both without a work log that the customer sees. its actually my money that I am spending in your shop so I demand a good value. eighth I like to see a working shop manager that is working on stuff also. one that knows his stuff and is really keeping track of my repair so it doesn't get out of hand. ninth when troubleshooting and you cant figure it out don't be embarrassed to ask for help. it will save the paying customer time and money to diagnose this as quick and accurately as possible. tenth when working on my tractor please keep the repair moving along. don't go start 5 other repairs and make mine take 3 months because its the off season. eleven. keep me in the loop of my repair. you r spending my money and I get to be involved in some of the decisions. twelfth. when you do all these things you have the right to charge high shops rates and I will gladly pay my bill. happy new year. just remember its a 2 way street out here and we both have options.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Breeggy
Posted 1/5/2016 07:32 (#5012027 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Leave it on the bill. He he really has that many complaints he is most likely one of those guys that b**ch about a bill just to get it knocked down even further.

Your a business, you used the items to do his repair, your damn right he is charged for them. Around here I don't know of a shop that doesn't charge shop supplies.

Every job you use misc parts/ supplies to complete. By the time you find part numbers write it down bill it out and the mechanics time to do so. It cheaper to bill " shop supplies"

and be done. Why would anyone not charge for it? basically giving the rags, brake cleaner, connectors. zip ties away. doesn't make since to me.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
tj_farms
Posted 1/5/2016 07:40 (#5012052 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Ohio
On the bills I get there is a misc supply charge and an environmental charge.

It burns my butt to see those, I had a bearing pressed on off and back on a shaft and had to pay those additional fees even thou they used nothing other than a hyd press.

Shop rate is high enough and should cover all these as a part of doing business. Just charge a higher rate, that's what you're doing by adding addition charges for the shop supplies. As far as brake clean and gasket sealers add them to the bill as needed as parts.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
BigNorsk
Posted 1/5/2016 07:44 (#5012065 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Rolla, ND
This is really pretty simple, show what your company spent last month on shop supplies and what was billed last month for shop supplies.

If they are somewhat similar, no problem.

If, on the other hand the charge for shop supplies is several times what is spent, then I have a problem.

i would also expect a shop charging for supplies to be paying mechanics a tool surcharge.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Oilfarmer
Posted 1/5/2016 08:04 (#5012117 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Ravenna Ohio

Machine shop has never charged shop supplies like bits. Hose maker has never charged time for making one. I always felt like it was decoupling to make shop time sound cheaper. I have had auto shops charge an EPA disposal charge. Love that one. I think it is also used as a way around the flat rate time book. About like flying Alliegent Air (sp).

Top of the page Bottom of the page
drj4840
Posted 1/5/2016 08:34 (#5012186 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



fullerton nebraska
some of the responses on here are kinda funny, lol some guys must not know the cost of shop supplies, rags, brake cleaner, zipties, ect. i suppose the shop is supposed to shop around and try to find the cheapest brake cleaner and cheapest electrical clips, and just as well get the 4.99 assortment of 5000 zip ties. seriously if the job is done right and you found a good mechanic, who the hell cares about a $20 supply charge? just throw a couple cans of brake cleaner and make sure there is a roll of shop towels in the cab, oh yeah and some hand cleaner, so when i have to wash my hands 14 times to answer the phone because you want to know if your tractor is done yet. I farm and bend wrenches, so i am on both sides, my point is some guys are just gonna bitch no matter what! they will always think they are getting screwed and everybody else is gettin rich. bottom line, if you got a good repairman, keep him happy and he will take care of you, if u are a complainer the guy probably wont see his phone ring after 5 or he clocks out at 5:30 when a half hour on friday night he coulda got your tractor done, maybe woulda had to charge $22.95 for shop supplies, but that wouldnt be an issue because he got the job done and you were happy!!!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
gene_champ
Posted 1/5/2016 08:46 (#5012215 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


NC Iowa
a lot of car dealerships run a oil change special, mainly to upsell other services. when you get the bill, you find they charged you $5 a quart for the oil, and $2 a quart for disposal fee for the oil that someone come around and pay them $.50 a quart for. i wonder if they noticed that many don't come back.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
slowzuki
Posted 1/5/2016 10:55 (#5012531 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


New Brunswick, Canada
I have the same argument bill office work. They try to bill phone calls and photo copies etc. Hold up a 5000$ bill 3 weeks till the end of the month to squeeze the damn 5$ phone call and 0.50$ photocopy charge onto the bill. Bloody silly. Same as the cans of brake clean etc. Most are using a percent markup to calculate that, just bury it in the labour rate along with everything else. Nothing pisses people off like surcharge after surcharge.

No body wants to track every piddly shop supply except the accountants but remember they earn a living tracking cents. Think about the cost of tracking cents when you could be making dollars.

CASE3594 - 1/4/2016 20:04

I recently had an interaction with a customer about his bill. Among his many complaints was the charge for shop supplies. I know this has been discussed a number of times but I'm wanting to get some opinions from you guys, the customer, as well as anyone that has ever done billing, on what might be a fair way to handle this.

I don't have the bill in front of me right now, but it was roughly $1000 total. Labor was right at $450. The shop supplies came out to $22 and change. With the job involved, we used penetrating oil, brake clean, oxy/acetylene torch, a number of rags, some electrical connectors, and crimped 4 ends on 2 hydraulic hoses. The customer was not billed for any of these items except for the hoses and ends. Everything else was covered under "shop supplies".

Obviously, there is no way to bill out 1/100th of a can of brake clean. The electrical connectors we do have part numbers for, but have found that it takes more time to write down the part number (or go back and find it if you forgot it) than to just consider it a shop supply. Higher end connectors like Deutsch and Weatherpak we do bill separately. On this specific job, it was a number of heat shrink butt connectors and ring terminals.

My question is, what is your opinion on "shop supplies" and how would you like to see it billed. I suppose we could bill each can of brake clean, penetrating oil etc to the ticket and give the customer the remaining, unused, can. But what about oxygen and acetylene? Or welding wire or rod?

For what it's worth, I have no control over the percentage that calculates the shop supply charge. The only thing I can do is add it or subtract it completely. Let me know what you guys think or what your experience is with this.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
denny-o
Posted 1/5/2016 15:10 (#5013099 - in reply to #5012531)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Michigan - Saginaw County
I did not read the whole rant
Basically, if a 22 dollar charge for supplies on a 1000 dollar bill is his main problem, tell him to pay the damn bill and find some one else in the future
You don't need him for a customer
Be sure in the future customers know there will be a charge for chemicals, etc.

My airplane mechanic charges for every item used right down the the cotter pin
If you look up the price of AN parts you will understand why
Top of the page Bottom of the page
oldbones
Posted 1/5/2016 18:21 (#5013534 - in reply to #5013099)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies



Floyd County, Iowa
denny-o

I'd imagine the reason for the airplane mechanic being meticulous about listing every cotter pin has to do with liability, to prove that no (weakened) parts were re-used.
Our old family doctor was an avid small plane pilot. He told me that when an airplane crashes, even the paint manufacturer is named in the lawsuits.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
DC4020
Posted 1/5/2016 20:45 (#5014122 - in reply to #5011131)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Central Ga
I suspect the add on shop supply charge is a huge money maker percentage wise.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Loren SE IA
Posted 1/6/2016 08:24 (#5015085 - in reply to #5014122)
Subject: RE: Billing Issue - Shop Supplies


Kalona, IA

Took me quite a while to read these posts! 
Lots of diversified opinions. Everyone has the right to their own opinion.
Some great shops and Techs that I would sure do Biz with.
Some just the opposite that I would stay away from.

If you're a Shop that has been at it for a long time and have plenty of Biz and a good reputation in the community, you're probably doing it right. 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

(Delete cookies)