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Our tillage radish crop so far
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sandfarmer
Posted 11/22/2009 17:01 (#934193)
Subject: Our tillage radish crop so far



SW Indiana
These were planted the 1st of September, obviously they are not all this big, but there a bunch of big ones out there. I have a few patches where the radishes look stunted and the tops are yellowish, there might be just a few in these areas that look normal. Could it be compaction? Its in the middle of the field, don't think its a nutrient issue. The girls had fun this afternoon looking for the biggest ones. Will these big ones break down by April to plant corn?

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Ed Winkle
Posted 11/22/2009 17:26 (#934217 - in reply to #934193)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far


Martinsville, Ohio
Looks good sandfarmer! They should really help your soil! That is pretty good growth for 80 days growth!

Whats the girls think of those things?

Pretty pic!

Ed
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sandfarmer
Posted 11/22/2009 18:43 (#934301 - in reply to #934217)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far



SW Indiana
They figured out that they didn't want to eat them, as they tried a bite of one. Several people are asking about them in the neighborhood, some even stopping and pulling some up. Looking forward to planting corn here in the spring. With the radishes there, can I leave some of the N out of my starter? or go ahead with my normal program?
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Orfarmer
Posted 11/22/2009 20:19 (#934456 - in reply to #934301)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far



Roanoke, IN
I would do a normal starter program, but maybe go a little lighter on sidedress N.
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Ed Winkle
Posted 11/22/2009 21:19 (#934556 - in reply to #934301)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far


Martinsville, Ohio
You can do a pre sidedress test for N. Orfarmer may be right but they release more P and K. They will release whatever N was leftover not make N.

Ed
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sgroff
Posted 11/22/2009 21:26 (#934580 - in reply to #934301)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far



SE PA
you'll have to experiment with leaving some N out of your starter but you need to try it on some acres until you get comfortable with it. Most all N the radishes release is early so that's when you take advantage of what they do. There is some anadotal evidence that the radishes minerlize other nutrients as well. Part of the theory that supports this is there is usually and increase of soil temp of up to 2 degrees at planting depth. That is significant early on in the spring for getting the seeds up and going and making other nutrients availible with a warmer soil.
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Ed Winkle
Posted 11/23/2009 12:07 (#935269 - in reply to #934580)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far


Martinsville, Ohio
I would much agree, that is what I see.
How is the mainstream farmer going to get this planted by early September?

Ed
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sgroff
Posted 11/23/2009 15:54 (#935432 - in reply to #935269)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far



SE PA
need to start thinking outside the box Ed. shorter season corn or beans on some acres. Continue to pursue aerial and hi-clearance in-crop seeding. Tweaking the rotation....yes, yes, I know most don't want to hear this but I think it's inevitable to remain profitable in the future.
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Goatwrangler
Posted 11/22/2009 20:05 (#934433 - in reply to #934193)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far


Eastern Kansas
Mine aren't that big, but I have the same problem with some of them being very small and yellow on the leaves. I put 50 units N on them in Sept. and planted them August 1. Wish they were all as big as the good healthy ones but don't know what the problem is with the wimpier ones. Anybody got any clues? Soil test seemed adequate when I planted wheat last fall there.
Greg
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will
Posted 11/22/2009 20:43 (#934489 - in reply to #934193)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far



SC
I have noticed on mine that anywhere water might have puddled during some early rains the radish are stunted and small. Over all they look good to me, but it's my first attempt. My plan right now is to treat the fields just like i would without the radish, but leave an area to do some experimenting.
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20/20 ROB
Posted 11/22/2009 21:02 (#934521 - in reply to #934489)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far


Harrington, DE
Ours dont look very good, first try with them,I think and hope it is because of all the rain we have had. Delaware
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sgroff
Posted 11/22/2009 21:28 (#934585 - in reply to #934521)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far



SE PA
Rob,
that 7 or so inches of rain you had a few weeks ago would have been hard on the radishes. But since we've had decent weather the past 2 weeks have they improved any recently?
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20/20 ROB
Posted 11/25/2009 17:14 (#938081 - in reply to #934585)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far


Harrington, DE
Hey Steve sorry for the delayed post, no it has stayed wet they dont look good im sure its the wet weather, they dont hardly even have a root at all. I know Brian s last year looked totally different at this time. Thats Farming
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Delmarva Ag
Posted 11/22/2009 21:09 (#934537 - in reply to #934193)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



Seaford, Delaware
I threw a couple of handfuls out three weeks ago but the rains washed them away! LOL

Alan
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sgroff
Posted 11/22/2009 21:22 (#934563 - in reply to #934193)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



SE PA
Nice pictures of you kids! Your yellowing radishes have probably taken up all availible N in those areas. Ideally by this time of year you would want to see some leaves starting to yellow- like I see a few leaves on the pictures. that means you've done you're best to soak up all N so it doesn't leach. U of MD has seen over 100lbs of N taken up in the fall. Don't worry, they'll all die and "melt down" by the begining of March. Or yellowing could mean it was too wet in those areas as well.
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584ldr
Posted 11/22/2009 23:15 (#934802 - in reply to #934563)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far


nwin
i planted some in my double crop beans just to try them . had to sacrifice the beans. good thing beans wern't too good. will i pick up more n that the beans produced that will be saved in the radish. only planted 6 acres as a test plot. kind of courious as to how well corn will do. fun to play around, just might learn something as i go
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jbgruver
Posted 11/22/2009 23:16 (#934804 - in reply to #934563)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



As shown in the first photo which follows, the radishes that we drilled on 30" rows (2.5 lbs radish/ac with 1.5 bu oats/ac in the interrow) are all deep green in color whereas the radishes drilled on 7.5" (10 lbs/ac) are lighter in color and there are some streaks of much yellower plants.

I think the yellowing is related to the wetness this fall but also to competition for N at the higher density of radish.

The second photo shows Ethiopian cabbage, Hunter hybrid forage brassica and Winfred hybrid forage brassica (laying side by side from left to right). The Ethiopian cabbage started out slowly but now is growing fast.

The third photo shows a 30' wide strip of Hunter hybrid forage brassica with Ethiopian cabbage to the left and Winfred to the right.

All were planted on 9/8.

Joel
WIU Agriculture

Edited by jbgruver 11/22/2009 23:26




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sgroff
Posted 11/23/2009 06:18 (#934943 - in reply to #934804)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



SE PA
Joel,
good example of what tillage radishes will do in taking up left over N. They are a tremendous scavenger of N. On your drilled plot the seeding rate was higher so they effectively got most all the N that was there. The 30" rows have not gotton to the point of getting all the N yet. I've seen this many times in seeding rate strips I've done in the same field. Thicker stands will start yellowing first. When I see this i know I'm minimizing N leaching potential over the winter. However, on the flip side, if soils are low in N to begin with, adding N will help the tillage radishes to maximize their genetic potential of deep rooting action. So, like any other crop it comes down to management and knowing what you are trying to accomplish. Wettness can also be a contributing factor and that may or may not be related to the N already being leached away. Do you concur?
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jbgruver
Posted 11/23/2009 10:58 (#935212 - in reply to #934943)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



I mostly agree but I am wondering about how population density impacts total N uptake by radishes.

Excessive seeding rates (perhaps as low as 10 lbs per acre on some soils) clearly lead to stunting that reduces total biomass production but how much does this reduce N uptake??

I know that Dr. Weil's group found that later planted radishes accumulated much less biomass but had higher N concentrations in the tissue such that their N scavenging was still pretty good.

Other functions such as biodrilling and weed suppression were more negatively affected by late planting date than N scavenging.

I am thinking that low populations of radishes combined with a cheaper cover crop like oats is probably the best strategy for us but I will need to see how our 2010 corn performs on the 10 lb/ac solid radish strips vs. the 2.5 lbs per acre 30" row radish w/oats strips before I can say much more about this.

Joel
WIU Agriculture


Edited by jbgruver 11/23/2009 11:06
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sgroff
Posted 11/23/2009 11:25 (#935235 - in reply to #935212)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



SE PA
Joel,
Here's what I'm thinking that happens in regards to tillage radish plant population and N scavenging. If you have 50lbs of N in the soil to begin with, a low seeding rate of radishes will not show N deficiency. If you have a higher rate of radishes they may collectively take up all the 50lbs of N earlier and then show yellowing(N deficiency) sooner then the lower rate of radishes. Does that make sense?
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jbgruver
Posted 11/24/2009 11:12 (#936363 - in reply to #935235)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



Hello Steve,

your comments make sense... all I am saying is that yellowing of radishes (or any other cover crop) doesn't necessarily mean that all the available N in the profile has been scavenged. Radishes stunted by over crowding
may grow shallower roots and thus miss out on N deeper in the profile (that would be accessible to more vigorous plants).

Loss of nitrate by leaching and/or denitrification in excessively wet soils can clearly accelerate N deficiency symptoms but excessive wetness can also lead to unhealthy roots with reduced ability to take up N and other nutrients.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that radishes don't like "wet feet" but it would interesting to know why... a better understanding of the mechanisms might lead to improved genetics or management practices that expand the adaptability of radishes.

It would be great to have a cover crop that is well adapted for improving drainage in wet spots.

Joel
WIU Agriculture



Edited by jbgruver 11/25/2009 09:02
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sgroff
Posted 11/24/2009 19:58 (#936858 - in reply to #936363)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



SE PA
Joel,
excellent point about higher densities of radishes might not scavenge as much N deep in the soil profile- I hadn't thought of that.
And I'd also like to know why radishes don't do as well in wet spots compared to something like oats. Are all brassicas this way?
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Francis
Posted 11/23/2009 17:14 (#935478 - in reply to #934943)
Subject: Re: Our tillage radish crop so far


Redfield, SD
Steve, Ed Joel,

What about prevent plant acres? How would you seed acres that are somewhat too wet to plant to a 'cash' crop(I suppose I will hear about my terminology)? Pot holes, swales too wet to plant and we know that a growing crop that is not next years weed is the way to go, but we need some type of seeding system to get the seed 'planted' and many acres covered in a short time frame. What are you thoughts about this? Looking for ideas as next spring could bring many acres of PP in our area.
Thanks
Francis
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mhagny
Posted 11/24/2009 08:36 (#936205 - in reply to #934804)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far


jbgruver - 11/22/2009 22:16 As shown in the first photo which follows, the radishes that we drilled on 30" rows (2.5 lbs radish/ac with 1.5 bu oats/ac in the interrow) are all deep green in color whereas the radishes drilled on 7.5" (10 lbs/ac) are lighter in color and there are some streaks of much yellower plants. I think the yellowing is related to the wetness this fall but also to competition for N at the higher density of radish.

-- Joel:  There could be moly or S deficiency involved, since brassicas have such enormous demand for those nutrients as compared to most other crops grown in this part of the world.  On a per-acre basis, a pure stand of brassica (radish, etc) would more quickly and visibly outstrip the S and Mo supply, whereas a brassica + oats mix would need less (oats doesn't require nearly so much of those nutrients).  Assuming, of course, that the total biomass of radish in the pure stand was double or triple (or more) what it was in the 30-inch alternate planting with oats. 

Anyway, just a thought. N def may explain it, but sometimes things aren't so simple or obvious. 

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jbgruver
Posted 11/24/2009 11:21 (#936371 - in reply to #936205)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far



thanks for the suggestions Matt.

we use potassium sulfate as our main source of K other than manure and have > 5% OM so i would be very surprised if S is deficient.

I suppose Mo could be an issue but our pHs are 6.5-7 so it doesn't seem likely.

In soils with marginal S levels, a low rate of ammonium sulfate (as used by Ed. Winkle if I am remembering correctly) could make a big difference in the growth of radishes or other brassicas.

Added S might also increase the biofumigation effects of brassicas.

Joel
WIU Agriculture
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mhagny
Posted 11/25/2009 08:16 (#937518 - in reply to #936371)
Subject: RE: Our tillage radish crop so far


jbgruver - 11/24/2009 10:21   I suppose Mo could be an issue but our pHs are 6.5-7 so it doesn't seem likely. 

This a dangerous assumption.  There are huge numbers of acres with Mo-def crops that have that pH or higher. 

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